MacDoctor June 6, 2010

The Hole in Maternity (Updated)

Once more the maternity system in New Zealand is under fire in the Dominion post, with a couple of articles involving the death of newborn babies. In the first article, the newborn died from haemorrhagic disease (excessive bleeding) because the parents refused to allow their child to have vitamin K. Too much internet disinformation can be hazardous for your child’s health. The midwife in question was criticised for not answering the parents questions on vitamin K apparently because it was week 28 and she customarily gave that information at week 36. The baby was born on week 35 (five weeks early). I hesitate to criticise the midwife here, but excess rigidity shows an excessive reliance on normality. There was absolutely no reason not to discuss vitamin K at the time requested by the parents and it may have prevented them misinforming themselves.

The second article is far more tragic. A newborn died unnecessarily and a mother was severely compromised and almost killed. The mother still has severe ongoing problems. The midwife was just seven months out of college.

In contrast, a newly graduated doctor is heavily supervised for two years before being allowed to handle patients without senior input. And the medical course is twice as long as the midwifery course and contains two years of patient contact as a student.

And yet midwives are allowed almost the same level of autonomy as a year 9 doctor – at least in terms of obstetrics.

This is a rather horrific illustration of the underlying problem of the Lead Maternity Carer system. In 1995, the year before the LMC system was put in place, midwives were, for the first time, allowed to graduate outside of the nursing system. A separate course allowed them to become midwife instead of nurses, rather than in addition to nursing. Prior to 1995, a nurse had to have not merely graduated, but actually had to have a certain amount of experience before becoming a midwife.

I remember the midwives from my house surgeon days. They were tough older women who would not for a moment take any nonsense from a mere house surgeon. They would acknowledge the obstetrician as one would an equal – but they would follow his (usually his) orders immediately, without question. After all, he was a real doctor. These women all knew as much practical obstetrics as the obstetrician. They had experience.

The reforms of the 1990 placed inexperienced half-nurses into the same positions as these highly experienced midwives

The reforms of the 1990 placed inexperienced half-nurses into the same positions as these highly experienced midwives. All of these new midwives knew how to deal with a normal birth. Unfortunately, none of them know (at least initially) what abnormal looks like. You can see this obliquely in the first article but it is in the second article that you can see the disastrous natural consequence. When you have only really experienced normal, your brain tends to filter out the early warning signs of “abnormal” until it is too late. A more experience midwife would probably not have handled the situation that developed any better than the younger one, but the more experience one would have had the mother in hospital by the time things went pear-shaped. That’s the difference.

Of course, the 1996 Maternity Act made this situation much worse by essentially offering to pay midwives and GPs the same amount of money. The amount offered was more than reasonable by a midwife’s standards, but was barely worthwhile from a GP’s viewpoint. A GP could make a great deal more money with substantially less risk and inconvenience by sticking to his consulting room and leaving the delivery suite to midwives. And stick he did. GPs abandoned obstetrics in droves. By 2006 there were only 54 practicing GP obstetricians. I have no idea how many are left now, but I am willing to bet it is a lot less than 54.

The net upshot of this disappearance of the GP obstetrician is the rapid skill-and-knowledge-loss of obstetrics amongst GPs. Most rural hospital doctors have a seriously diminished obstetric ability, simply because they hardly ever see any obstetrics. Unfortunately, this lack of GP and rural doctor experience coincides with the loss of the older, more experienced midwives from rural practice. New, inexperienced midwives are rapidly filling the gaps. But now they have no GP back up.

There is a third, more subtle, problem in Maternity. The bypassing of nursing meant that women with a very anti-doctor viewpoint could become nurses without encountering said doctors. These women were predominantly militant feminists as this piece of feminist rhetoric from Karen Guilliland, of the New Zealand College of Midwives illustrates:

“The process of a government funding agency defining childbirth as a life process rather then a medical event and giving midwives, general practitioners and obstetricians equal status in the provision of services around childbirth was a major triumph for women in general and the women dominant profession of midwifery.”

See anything about improving health care or reducing infant mortality in there? Me neither.

This anti-doctor mindset is just one more issue preventing the inexperienced midwife from seeking help in a timely manner. It may be a small issue, but it is most certainly a real one.

Interestingly, the paper from which I lifted the Guilliland quote is an unpublished (AFAIK) paper by Andrea Kutinova of the Department of Economics, University of Canterbury. It ably demonstrates that the neonatal mortality rate of GP-supervised births is about 10% less than that of midwife-supervised births, despite the obvious caveat that women going to GPs for their maternity care tend to be those with potential birthing problems.

I’m betting this will not be a popular paper in midwifery circles.

I’ve seen a bit of raving about this issue in the blogosphere of late, attempting to blame Labour. Unfortunately this is an issue that can be laid squarely on the shoulders of the last National administration. While the feminists may have been delighted with the idea, the Maternity Act was little more than a cost-saving measure. And a very poor one at that. This means that it is up to National to grab the nettle firmly and extract it, no matter how often it stings. It is, afterall, all their fault.

MacDoctor’s advice, Mr Ryall, FWIW:

  • Insist on a minimum of 2 years postgraduate nursing experience for midwifery and a further years attachment to a hospital birthing unit in a teaching hospital. Frankly, I would push to have midwifery made into a nurse-specialist field, but I realise that would cause a sudden shortage of midwives. Maybe later.
  • It should be possible to persuade some of the older midwives to come out of retirement to supervise the younger ones.
  • Allow GPs to charge above the midwife rate. There are many mothers who would prefer a GP but can’t afford to pay the entire amount of a GP-supervised confinement. There is no reason why the current maternity fee could not provide a part-payment.
  • Promote GP obstetrics again. You will have to do a lot of work here, as GPs have a tendency to think “once bitten, twice shy”. Bonus incentives for rural GPs to practice obstetrics comes immediately to mind. Paid refresher courses would be helpful.
  • It is time some real research into midwifery was conducted. Lets see some real evidence-based practice instead of the bizarre new-age claptrap that usually comes out of the mouths of modern midwives.

The MacDoctor awaits the tidal wave of rabid midwife comments with anticipation.

 

Update:

It seems the plot thickens somewhat as it has been revealed that the original midwife had addiction problems. While this does not automatically cast doubt on her mentoring abilities, is certainly raises doubts about her ability to judge her young protégé’s competence. The real question , of course, is why the midwifery council allowed her to mentor.

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  • My personal experience (well okay, it wasn’t *me* giving birth) is that there is another fault — Midwifes start managing their business like a, well, business. If you can rack up a chunk of customers and (therefore and thereby) minimise your contact time you can probably make quite a decent living. Quite a bad incentive…is there any control at all over this?

    It is a sad thing that most doctors miss out the cradle-to-grave experience these days. Affirming for them and bonding for the community I would think. Sadder still for the poor mother who gives herself over to someone who makes all the right sounds but can’t bloody fix anything.

    I suspect the horrible hours on top of having a day job means rural doctors would need significant dosh to want to compete against full-time midwifes. The yelling from that quarter would be so loud (“oh, the inequality, why are we not all paid the same?”) as to make it politically difficult too.

    • Quite a bad incentive…is there any control at all over this?

      Not a thing. In fact the logical incentive for a midwife would be to minimise all contact with the mother until childbirth. They can’t do this for two reasons – firstly, they get less money if the mother needs maternity intervention and accesses the GP because she can’t get hold of the midwife. Secondly, the word gets round to the GP practice nurses quite quickly if a midwife is largely unavailable. That midwife soon finds herself without referrals.

      And yes, you are right that bumping up GP remuneration would meet with loud wails from the midwives. The words “gender discrimination” would feature highly, I suspect.

    • Quite a bad incentive…is there any control at all over this?

      i think that is exactly whats happening. There are many excellent midwives, there are also many ignorant midwives who don’t know what they don’t know.

      I think the business imperative has lots to do with epidurals and interventions too. There is an incentive to schedule births during your daytime, inductions anyone? What they used to accuse the old boys of. Epidurals lead to a cascade of interventions that often end in instrumental births – but they are easier to manage.

      Pethedine and home? Sure means you dont have to hang around with them in delivery

      Women are entitled to 7 postnatal visits under the payment schedule. I always check how many times they have been seen (if I actually know the baby has been born) and postnatal visits are usually much fewer. In December I had one woman who had no visits, not one. MW went away and handed over to no one. The old tradition was see monthly antenatally until 36 weeks then weekly. That is rare too. As are swabs, urine tests and BPs

      Call me a cynic, it must be my local area…yes?

      All anecdotal but I have grave fears

  • “It is time some real research into midwifery was conducted. Lets see some real evidence-based practice instead of the bizarre new-age claptrap that usually comes out of the mouths of modern midwives”.

    What do you think about,
    http://hoydenabouttown.com/20100116.7157/that-homebirth-study-in-south-australia/

    • “Interestingly, the paper from which I lifted the Guilliland quote is an unpublished (AFAIK) paper by Andrea Kutinova of the Department of Economics, University of Canterbury. It ably demonstrates that the neonatal mortality rate of GP-supervised births is about 10% less than that of midwife-supervised births, despite the obvious caveat that women going to GPs for their maternity care tend to be those with potential birthing problems”.

      I would have thought that the fact that the NZ study divided between its population of GP-supervised-births and midwife-supervised-births via which type was selected by the mother-to-be at the START of their pregnancy would have been a significant caveat to the study conclusions, since the midwife may not have actually supervised the birth in the end. This might include doctor-supervised births results in the midwife-supervised births results category or vice-versa, wouldn’t you agree?

    • What do I think? Not much.

      It is ironic that “Ms. Hoyden” castigates the bias of Dr. Pesce (which is fully declared in his article), while being an anonymous blogger with a clear, undeclared bias.

      What makes the irony even more amusing is that she neglects to mention the declaration in the actual article.

      Marc Keirse was the main architect and the chairperson of the working party that developed the Policy for Planned Birth at Home in South Australia.

      Marc Keirse has been strongly instrumental in enabling midwives to provide home births in a safe, evidence-based manner. Even a cursory glance at the abstract shows that the article is more concerned with making home birthing safer than with ending it.

      Conclusions: Perinatal safety of home births may be improved substantially by better adherence to risk assessment, timely transfer to hospital when needed, and closer fetal surveillance.

      .

      Ms. Hoyden clearly does not get this, as she spends most of her time trying to make out that there is no problem in home birthing despite this:

      They had a perinatal mortality rate similar to that for planned hospital births (7.9 v 8.2 per 1000 births), but a sevenfold higher risk of intrapartum death (95% CI, 1.53–35.87) and a 27-fold higher risk of death from intrapartum asphyxia (95% CI, 8.02–88.83).

      The disputed latter statistic has fairly wide confidence limits due to the small numbers involved. However, the lower confidence limit is well away from 1. This means that, whatever the actual number, which could be lower or higher than 27 fold, the risk of death from intrapartum asphyxia is substantially MORE for home births than for hospital births. There is no getting away from this.

      Ms. Hoyden moans about the fact that the study then goes on to analyse the home birth fatalities, without analysing the hospital ones. This is silly. We already know the causes of intrapartum hospital mortality. what the article is trying to do is establish the cause of home birth mortality, so that it can be corrected. Their conclusion I have already quoted.

      Strangely enough, it seems to accord with the conclusions in my post. How peculiar.

      • I think you’re shooting first and reading later?

        “Strangely enough, it seems to accord with the conclusions in my post. How peculiar”.

        The entire point of her post was to refute Dr Pesce’s claim regarding intrapartum asphyxia. She makes one entirely valid claim regarding the statistic cited,

        “Of the three deaths attributed to intrapartum asphyxia in the planned home birth group, two occurred in hospital. One at home. One”.

        Does anything else really need to be said? One in one thousand occurred without any hospital intervention at all. This is the only truely valid home-birth death. The statistic cited regarding intrapartum asphyxia in the article is crap.

        “what the article is trying to do is establish the cause of home birth mortality, so that it can be corrected. Their conclusion I have already quoted”.

        Rubbish. The study also looked at the safety of hospital birthing compared to home birthing. Statistically, home-birthing is slightly safer, (as opposed to Dr Pesce’s conclusion that death rates are ‘similar’- he couldn’t bring himself to say ‘safer’), and results in fewer medical interventions including episiotomies and C sections (thank God for that I say), and higher birth weights for some.

        Talk about some highly desirably outcomes. If home-birthing becomes more widespread, maybe they can save up to an additional 20 or 30 babies in South Australia over the next 16 years?

        • Of the three deaths attributed to intrapartum asphyxia in the planned home birth group, two occurred in hospital. One at home. One

          Which only illustrates both your and her complete lack of understanding of statistics. It should also be screamingly obvious that most home birth cock-ups will die in hospital – too late a referral is as bad as no referral at all.

          WHen you say “home birthing is slightly safer”, I presume your conclusion is drawn from the small difference in perinatal mortality. Not only is this non-statistically significant anyway, I have already pointed out elsewhere that home-birthing self-selects the safer cases. It would be surprising (and horrifying) indeed if home birthing did not appear to be “safer”.

          • “It should also be screamingly obvious that most home birth cock-ups will die in hospital – too late a referral is as bad as no referral at all”.

            That is a statement that you can in no way substantiate for any of these 3 cases. Dismissing Hoyden’s ‘guess’ (which is pointing out the obvious) whilst relying on your own. This is why it would be unfair to make public policy restricting midwifery based on this statistic- it fails to represent reality.

            “Not only is this non-statistically significant anyway, I have already pointed out elsewhere that home-birthing self-selects the safer cases”.

            When you look at the obvious reality of child-birth, it becomes quite obvious why home-birthing ‘self-selects the safer cases’, as most pregnancies don’t need an epidural, episiotomy, and C section to bring a child to birth. These are the unsafe parts of the hospital child-birth process- surgery! And to top it off these procedures are primarily part of an inducement process rather than for medically necessary reasons.

            Why push off this statistic when it is the status quo for hospitals to induce labour for otherwise healthy mothers & babies through medical interventions, which results in a distressed baby with DROPPING vital stats while in hospital, thus making it ‘medically necessary’ to take the under-weight baby out quickly via C section! I had this exact set of events happen to a friend only last month, and boy does she regret ever trying to induce labour in hospital!

            The fact that home-birthing simply lets the mother deliver the child through the proper biological mechanisms results in higher birth-weight and a healthier mother and child- the study screams out this result. Does the medical profession have any interest in addressing the issue of low birth-weight resulting from induced delivery, or any of its associated post-birth health implications? I’m sure they’ll deal with that after the baby is born if it happens.

            • Surgical interventions do have risks and side effetcs yes. The alternative though is dead babies and/or mothers. Its calculated risks

              I doubt there is any magic that occurs at the time of homebirth that makes babies heavier than those born in hospital….

              75% of babies are born well no matter what you do.

              What obstetrics and excellent maternity care are needed for is the other 25-30% that arent so lucky.

              Normal Vaginal Delivery – that classification of hindsight

            • Errm and – I’d just like to point out that all those inductions for ‘no reason’ done in hospitals are done in the main by their LMCs – 75% of whom are midwives….

              Nature taking its course is fine. As long as perfection of experience and newborn are not expected too.

            • Johnnieboy:

              Now we are on to the dubious practice of induction. Actually midwives do most of the inductions nowadays as very few doctors still catch babies. I’m betting that your friend was induced by a midwife, not a doctor.

              Once again, I must reiterate that I have no problem with home births. I have a problem with the experience level of modern midwives.

  • 6 kids over 13 years, all different midwifes.
    My observation is the standards have been slipping with many midwifes increasingly focused on the business aspects of their livelihood (as Bruce notes) – except for the midwife we had for our youngest, but that midwife was a man, a pom, and is thinking of heading to Australia because the money’s better, especially as he’s not one of those midwifes who aims to maximise income by maximising client numbers and minimising ante-natal client contact.

    • What is with everyone moaning about midwives trying to maximize patient numbers and their income that has at least two people here downcast about the state of midwifery?

      Hello? Name a healthcare profession that does not do exactly this at all times? Physiotherapists, GPs in practice, chiropractors, podiatrists, homeopaths, massage therapists, dermatologists. These are the professionals I have had personal contact with over the years and they all try to maximise patient numbers.

      And there is nothing wrong with it at all as everyone in these professions has the paid job of looking after their respective communities, but at the same time they must make a profit so that they can survive! What a strange thing to complain about. If they weren’t profit-focused as sole-traders or company owners- they would be out of a job.

      • My personal experience of most professionals is that they’re more interested in doing their jobs properly to keep their regular clients happy, the ones you have to watch out for are the shifty semi-professionals that don’t rely on a regular clientèle but rather principally rely on a steady flow of new customers; real estate agents, barristers and midwifes.

      • Quite a bad incentive…is there any control at all over this?

        i think that is exactly whats happening. There are many excellent midwives, there are also many ignorant midwives who don’t know what they don’t know.

        I think the business imperative has lots to do with epidurals and interventions too. There is an incentive to schedule births during your daytime, inductions anyone? What they used to accuse the old boys of. Epidurals lead to a cascade of interventions that often end in instrumental births – but they are easier to manage.

        Pethedine and home? Sure means you dont have to hang around with them in delivery

        Women are entitled to 7 postnatal visits under the payment schedule. I always check how many times they have been seen (if I actually know the baby has been born) and postnatal visits are usually much fewer. In December I had one woman who had no visits, not one. MW went away and handed over to no one. The old tradition was see monthly antenatally until 36 weeks then weekly. That is rare too. As are swabs, urine tests and BPs

        Call me a cynic, it must be my local area…yes?

  • I was pleasantly surprised by the maternity care I received. By reading American and English literature on childbirth, I’d been led to expect to have to choose between nice but homeopathy-wielding clueless wallies who’d never heard of placental abruption, or surgeons who wanted to schedule a caesarian in before their golf game. Instead, I found the midwives competent and professional, and the various specialists friendly and approachable, and they worked well together. I’d far rather be giving birth in New Zealand than in the US, where the standards for practising midwifery are much lower and the costs of obstetric-standard care are much higher.

    The issue for me wasn’t so much a shortage of GP care, but a shortage of care in general. It took phonecall after phonecall to find a midwife that wasn’t all booked up, 8 months in advance.

  • Oh! And used car salesmen, mustn’t forget those shifty bastards.

  • Thanks MacD, you’ve answered some of my questions.

    I was staggered to hear that, in the case where the baby died, the midwife gave the mother pethidine and sent her home *while she was in labour*, and despite her pleas to stay in the birthing centre. I would have fired her on the spot (easy for me to say, I know). What sort of training does it take to produce such callousness and gross incompetence? Do these people care about their patients?

    My impression was that the mother was sent home because the midwife expected the labour to take all day and didn’t want the mother cluttering up the birthing centre.

    It’s deeply ironic that a feminist agenda results in the death of babies and the maiming of mothers.

    http://mandenomusings.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/another-baby-killed-by-a-midwife/
    Mandeno Musings´s last [type] ..Another baby killed by a midwife

  • Andrea’s paper is unpublished and from what I remember it also has a do not quote statement on it since it is work in progress.
    Paul Walker´s last [type] ..Trade and firms

    • Just checked the version you were using (the NZAE version) and see it doesn’t have the don’t quote statement on it but it does say it is a “Preliminary draft” and I know that she is still working on it and thus there are no final conclusions as yet.
      Paul Walker´s last [type] ..Trade and firms

      • Thanks, Paul. I did say that Andrea’s paper is unpublished. But her findings are very similar to the Australian paper that Johnnieboy has called attention to.

  • What puzzles me most is why folks don’t shell out for a private obstetrician. For the cost of a low end flat screen and a couple years’ sky subscription, they could do a hell of a lot to ensure better outcomes for their kids.

    Is it the implicit blessing given the low-training midwives that comes with government provision? Is it that folks just don’t put that much value on high quality childbirthing relative to being able to watch the Super-14 on a big screen?
    Eric Crampton´s last [type] ..Maternity

    • When everybody is taxed in order to pay for maternity care – including Catholic priests – it is more difficult for people to afford private care. It’s the same with those who choose to home school or private-school; they wind up paying twice for their children’s education.

      As I said in my other comment, it is sadly and profoundly ironic that a feminist agenda has basically sent NZ maternity care down the dunny.
      Mandeno Musings´s last [type] ..Another baby killed by a midwife

      • I agree, Mandeno. But how many folks who say they can’t afford an obstetrician decided they could afford a flat screen and Sky?
        Eric Crampton´s last [type] ..Maternity

        • You can get your 52″ TV on no payments and no interest for 36 months!

          Dya think GE money would go for it?

  • Eric,

    If I were to have another baby, I’d pay for a private OB. Back when I had my homebirths, I happily paid for a private midwife (in Australia). I can’t remember how much each birth cost … somewhere in the vicinity of $1500 to $2000.

  • Infant mortality is recorded but physical or intellecutual damage during birth isn’t.

    Collecting stats on babies who survive with birth-related disabilities might help focus people on the need for improvement.
    Homepaddock´s last [type] ..Five Minutes of Heaven (What Society Must Do)

    • Indeed, HP. I think we need a great deal more information than we currently have. Which was exactly Dr. Pesce’s point in the editorial in the MJA that Johnnieboy’s source is slating.

      It is time we looked at home birth from a scientific POV rather than merely assumed home births are good because they are “natural”. After all, “natural birth” a hundred years ago had ten times the perinatal and maternal mortality it does today. “Natural” is not necessarily “good”.

    • There is a Perinatal and Maternal Mortality Committee now that look at all that sort of stuff. Only since 2005 so becoming established.

      Good paediatrician and paediatric pathologist on the committee which gives me hope

      http://www.pmmrc.health.govt.nz/

      I’m not sure how joined up it is or if notification of all cases is compulsory

  • Two things – 1. Are you aware midwives can sign death certificates? This theoretically makes it possible to hide a stuff up, provided the grieving parents don’t realise there is anything to question, and 2. Are you also aware that the Barlows had to fight to get their son’s death recognised as a neonatal death? A heart rate and pulse of 60, while not sufficient to sustain life, was not considered sufficient to be classed as a sign of life. Adam Barlow was dying, but he was not fully deceased when he was born – yet his original death certificate says ‘still born’. How many other births are being mislabelled? Is this hiding a horrific statistic? Are the number of neonatal deaths far greater than is presently being reported? Something very serious indeed to consider.

    • I am aware that midwives can sign death certificates. Using a death certificate to cover one’s incompetence is highly illegal and a very serious accusation. I would have thought it would be almost impossible to prove this isn a home birth environment, unless there was an independent medical witness on hand.

      I have read through Jachin Mandeno’s excellent summary of the Barlow’s video and I must say I am horrified by the midwife’s apparent total incompetence.

      You are right about the death certificate in Adam Barlow’s case. “Still born” means that the baby has died well before delivery. In this case a pulse of 60 means a very sick baby that needs immediate resuscitation. Even a 5th year medical student knows that.

      Actually, even my 22-year-old arts student daughter knows that…

  • So well said, I agree with all of it.

    Women have lost a huge amount in the changes in maternity care in this country. Nurses can no longer train as midwives, they have to go back to 3 years study to become ‘trained’.

    Midwives who have never even seen a breech birth think you can decide to deliver this way at home. Because they read it in books?

    The system is completely unjoined. Family doctors often find out their patients are pregnant by accident. They are certainly not consulted about womens pre existing medical conditions. Rheumatic heart disease anyone? Delivered at home. Splenectomy anyone? She died from peripartum infection because midwife didnt think the spleen was important (read it on the HDC site and weep), Splenectomy anyone? Doesnt matter does it? Purple dead baby who inherited the spleen problem his mother did bit no one thought it mattered.

    Midwives can train entirely outside the abnormal. They can qualify never having experienced anything other than normal vaginal deliveries. there is no requirement for apprenticship outside graduation. Anyone with any brains knows that qualifying as a nurse or a doctor is just the beginning of your learning, the foundation knowledge you need to START to practice in a supervised environment. Not midwives though,

    All midwives should need to work in a neonatal unit in my opinion. See the bad things that can and do happen. Its much safer that way.

    Babies can be delivered by taxi drivers, 75% of births will be normal no matter what you do. What obstetrics exists for is the 25% that still die in other parts of the world, that used to die in this part of the world. Forget history at your peril. New Zealand child health statistics? What is our world ranking again? What did it used to be?

    Routine education against immunisation? Common – medically untrained people
    Referred back to primary care? This is funded (and paid for ) under section 88. Audit of my practice? 7 referrals back of 80 births. One would imagine this is not then claimed for? yeah right

    Don’t know the baby has been born? how then can timely immunisations occur at 6 weeks? How then can babies have a MEDICAL check after birth? How can they get joined up to well child providers when no one knows they are born?

    I see so many babies at 6? 9? 12 weeks that have never seen a well child provider, never had their heart, their hips, their eyes checked by someone who knows how to check these

    Poor child health in New Zealand? You betcha

    And it begins antenatally

    This has been a huge experiment that has never been evaluated. You can do all the satisfaction studies you like, its the only sort the midwifery council are interested in. We were sold direct entry midwifery because it would mean fewer epidurals, caesarians, complications

    Our caesarian rate is approaching 30% – when is it coming back down to the 12-15% promised if we took childbirth away from those nasty doctors?

    Angry? I am. Women are not being cared for properly, babies are not being cared for properly

  • Doctors left maternity because they were patently unwanted there. The environment became very hostile. Section 88 changes and money changes were the last straw, it had always been something done more for goodwill than any profit.

    http://www.rnzcgp.org.nz/assets/Uploads/RNZCGP-Position-Paper-on-Maternity-Background-paper.pdf

  • Absolutely not an accusation with regard to death certificates, just an observation – however, given human nature, sometimes desperate times lead to desperate measures. But absolutely not an accusation. It does bother me though that a medical Doctor has to go through so much training before he/she can sign a death certificate, whereas a midwife is able to after only a few short years….

    • All perinatal deaths are notifiable. It would be hard to cover up incompetence this way unless you had a conspiracy with the parents

      Post partum haemorrhage is regularly underreported IMO though, the criteria is <500ml blood loss. Its easier to enter that

  • And lets not get started on how quickly peopel can ‘learn’ prescribing! When never trained in either diagnosis or treatment!

  • Article by David McLoughlin in 2005 another nasty batch of births we had the coronor commenting on in Wellington
    http://www.midwiferynz.co.nz/news_12_11_05.html

  • Ah yes, I remember those wonderful, rose-tinted days when only GPs delivered babies. The sun always shone, fluffy lambs gambolled in paddocks and were never sent to the abattoir, and there was world peace.

    I had my first child in 1987. During labour my GP literally twiddled his thumbs (that being the only time I have ever seen anyone twiddle their thumbs) and made it quite clear the whole thing was a major inconvenience to him. When my son was born he was whipped away and cleaned and weighed and swaddled, before being handed back to me after 20 minutes or so. That was in spite of the fact that I had requested that I get to hold and feed him immediately after birth (it was radical and outrageous then to suggest that you might like this, of course). To this day, and 6 children later, I still feel the loss of that precious experience. I was someone for whom it was important that everything went right, and I had dreaded childbirth and motherhood, but I was stunned with wonder when I saw this perfect little creature appear in front of me. I felt that the baby that was handed back to me was no longer that child.

    You might think that I was unlucky (or, if you’re someone like MacDoctor, that my concerns were trivial). The thing is, I wasn’t especially unlucky. Traumatic and demeaning birth experiences (I felt like I was meat, not human) were common, and pressure from women unhappy with such experiences was what led to the introduction of independent midwives. MacDoctor is conveniently misrepresenting the facts when he says that the Maternity Act was little more than a cost-saving exercise. I detested pretty much everything Helen Clark did, but that was one great thing she did.

    In the days of GP births the midwife was only allowed to deliver the baby if the GP permitted her to do so. The person giving birth had no say in the matter whatsoever. Although the GP attending my second birth was a lovely man, I still wanted the midwife to deliver, as it felt unnatural to me for someone to race in heroically in the final 10 minutes and take over (and it is beyond me why anyone ever wants this). Again, in those days, such a wish was generally regarded as outlandish, but luckily for me the midwife on the day understood entirely and called the GP just a little late.

    My first three births were GP attended births, and the final four (the last in 2004) were independent midwife attended births. It was like night and day, darkness and light. Where the GP had been the centre of everything, with the needs of mother and child coming a distant last, now mother and child were at the centre. And when my midwives suggested interventions (no, none of them were rabidly pro-natural childbirth), I accepted them without question because I trusted that they had my and my child’s interests at heart. Midwives spent more time with me asking pertinent questions than any GP ever did.

    When GPs had a monopoly over childbirth, they abused it. Yes, there are bad midwives, and also good midwives who get things wrong from time to time. That was also the case with GPs. There used, in fact, to be regular horror stories about GP assisted births in the days when they were the sole deliverers of babies. When a midwife is involved in a poor birth outcome the conclusion reached by the media (with the aid of vested interests, I suspect) is that the poor outcome is a result of the lead carer having been a midwife rather than a GP. That’s not even logical and is an obvious (and annoyingly stupid) example of confounding.

    If the story of the Barlows is as it has been presented in the media, then there may be a case for midwives gaining more experience before they can become the lead maternity carer. I don’t see how, logically, it can be used as an argument for bringing back GPs. There was a tragic case a while ago of a child who died in hospital from an asthma attack because of inadequate care from an inexperienced, inadequately supervised, and possibly arrogant young registrar. No one seems to be calling for the introduction of GP care there, probably because it doesn’t make sense, just as it doesn’t when there are bad birth outcomes involving midwives.

    MacDoctor’s arguments lack honesty. He says “a newly graduated doctor is heavily supervised for two years before being allowed to handle patients without senior input. And the medical course is twice as long as the midwifery course and contains two years of patient contact as a student.” The medical course is surely twice as long because the body of knowledge that must be acquired by doctors is much greater. Doctors have not in fact spent twice as long studying childbirth as midwives (which MacDoctor implies without actually saying so). In fact I imagine they spend considerably less time studying childbirth than midwives do. But something tells me MacDoctor is not going to be jumping up and down with outrage about that.

    Also the issue of people being able to qualify as midwives without first qualifying as nurses is a red herring. Why waste education resources training someone in areas they are never going to have any use for? Do you expect an astronaut to also be an astrophysicist?

    My personal experience is that midwives are more knowledgeable about pregnancy and childbirth than GPs, basically because they spend all their time dealing with that area of expertise alone. One of my midwives was never a nurse, and she was impressively competent and demonstrated consistently good judgement, although she had not been a midwife for long.

    MacDoctor’s touching reminiscences from the days when his ilk had all the power are illuminating. He says: “I remember the midwives from my house surgeon days. They were tough older women who would not for a moment take any nonsense from a mere house surgeon. They would acknowledge the obstetrician as one would an equal – but they would follow his (usually his) orders immediately, without question. After all, he was a real doctor.” If these midwives were so equal, then why did they follow the orders of their equal without question? (Sorry, there’s some logic here that’s entirely eluding me.) What’s more, MacDoctor wants to bring these women back. If they’re the same style of mean old midwives I and many other young mothers were unfortunate enough to encounter in the 1980′s and prior, then I’d recommend that they stay retired.

    Anyway, why waste scarce health dollars paying GPs to deliver babies when midwives can do it more cheaply (and, I suspect, in spite of media hysteria, just as effectively)? MacDoctor does mention a paper by an Andrea Kutinova that possibly demonstrates that “the neonatal mortality rate of GP-supervised births is about 10% less than that of midwife-supervised births.” As Paul Walker points out, this paper is an unpublished draft. Even if the tentative conclusions of this paper prove to be valid, it does not follow that the single, inexorable solution to whatever the problem is is that all births must be GP supervised. (And the author herself is cautious, I note.)

    As for extra private payment for GPs to deliver babies, well, that initially sounds reasonable. But why should only GPs and not midwives be able to ask for an extra payment? What, actually, would be the justification for that? I think this is complicated – I’m not necessarily completely against it, but it would need to be carefully thought out. As far as I’m concerned though, the money would be better spent on something else of proven benefit to a child. I strongly suspect that you might as well spend it all on a homeopath or just flush it down the toilet for all the actual value it would add.

    The Australian homebirth study that Johnnieboy drew attention to was indeed garbage. See this link for why:
    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/croakey/2010/01/20/more-critique-of-the-homebirth-study-and-its-reporting-by-the-media/
    The authors (professors of midwifery), who clearly know something about statistics, state: “Looking at rare outcomes with small numbers often shows statistically significant results but they cannot have confidence around them due to the size of the sample and the event.” What they are saying is that a single homebirth death out of 1141 home births cannot be used to show statistical significance in the way it has been in this study (and that is intuitively obvious, isn’t it?)

    The coroner’s report from 2005 that Spud drew attention to is yet another classic example of a coroner (trained only in law) venturing fearlessly into unfamiliar territory. In other jurisdictions coroners have the backing of an office with expertise in the likes of statistics, medicine and economics. Here they go it pretty much alone, and consequently frequently get things wrong. In the cases the coroner referred to the midwives were clearly at fault, but how you jump from there to a recommendation to bring back GPs is beyond me.

    It may or may not be that midwives need more training before they can become a lead maternity carer. We cannot tell, from anything that MacDoctor has said, whether that is or is not the case. If they are inadequately trained (and I am not convinced that that is even true) then the solution to their lack of training is more training, not GP supervised births. (And isn’t that just logically extremely obvious? I cannot believe I am actually having to make this point.)

    MacDoctor states that he “awaits the tidal wave of rabid midwife comments with anticipation.” What, as a follow up to his tidal wave of rabid anti-midwife comments? He describes midwives as anti-doctor and militantly feminist (no midwife I’ve ever had has fallen into these categories) and his statement about “the bizarre new-age claptrap that usually comes out of the mouths of modern midwives” is, simply, bizarre claptrap. (I’m guessing from the language that MacDoctor uses that he is in his 60s at least – he certainly gives every impression of never having interacted with a modern midwife.) And from what I’ve heard of Karen Guilliland, she’s the voice of reason, especially when countering the rabid hysteria of doctors and the media frothing at the mouth about independent midwives.

    There is an irony I guess in someone, after having written an article that consists entirely of opinion and which includes no convincing evidence in support of that opinion, then ending the article with a call for real research into midwifery.

    • We have certainly evolved from the bad old days. I had excellent GPs and midwives involved in the care of all my children. NZ women have lost this.

      What we have now though is a big departure from that time. No GPs, no continuity of family care, no communication. I think the combination of medical person and midwifery person is a very safe place to be. You could argue for 75% that is not necessary, and that is probably true. But you only know the 25% who are at risk of dying after the fact. Good antenatal care lowers your odds of missing problems. Women should be entitled to medical and midwife health checks when they are pregnant. But no medical checks are funded from GPs – those doctors that look after families for long periods of their lives.

      Pregnant women arent in some magical place where they are fully protected from the vagaries of ill health. Childbirth is THE most dangerous time of all of our lives.

      Doctors training in obstretrics have many years of medical school training and 7+ years of postgraduate training before they are fit to be unsupervised taking responsibility for birth. As registrars they have 7 years of medical school, including long periods of undergraduate obstetric training. plus at least 3 years postgraduate experience before starting obstretric specialist training. That is because there is lots to learn about safe childbirth.
      And yet midwives with just 30 births under their belts are free to practice independently in the community from the day of graduation? There is something very wrong there

      What women and babies need is a joined up HEALTH system, where antenatal care is provided by both doctors and midwives, where midwives communicate with doctors, where they seek information about the health of women, where they communicate things like their blood test results, their scan results, the swab results etc. For the safety of the mothers and babies. Doctors look after families for a liftime, they often know improtant health issues that are neither sought nor recognised by LMCs

      I am continually referring women with health problems to the high risk maternity teams. Women the midwife thinks have no problems. Lupus? Genetic problems in the previous child? Rheumatic heart disease? Diabetes?

      These things are important in pregnancy. I am dismayed that few midwives in my area seem to know this.

      Things certainly needed to change and have done so from the 70s. Many of these changes have been great for mums and babies experiences of childbirth, and helping people retain autonomy and respect.. We need to match that with excellent antenatal and postnatal outcomes and healthy children.

      Too little medical knowledge when caring for humans at the most dangrous time of life is a dangerous thing too. I would want someone who had some insight to the potential problems for me looking after me and my baby

      Midwifery training and mentality in NZ leaves too many not knowing what they don’t know, but believing they have been taught it all. This is patently untrue.

    • Dragonfly, I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that lambs gamboled without fear of the abattoir in the old days. Some doctors were paternalistic, nasty, and incompetent, no doubt.

      My main objections to the present system are:

      1) the choices of mothers are severely restricted
      2) mothers lose the continuity of care that an obstetric GP can provide
      3) the choices of GPs are severely restricted
      4) the clear and severe overall reduction of the skills of midwives, as shown by recurring examples of gross and lethal incompetence
      5) people with three years (demonstrably inadequate) training are working without oversight and holding the lives of two people in their hands.
      Mandeno Musings´s last [type] ..Another baby killed by a midwife

    • My, you are reading a lot into my post, Dragonfly, including that I am some cold-hearted, paternalistic bastard, apparently.

      My post has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of home birthing over hospital delivery. Nor has it anything to do particularly with the merits of midwife delivery over GP delivery. I certainly do NOT think that all deliveries should be GP lead, nor do I think, unlike some of my colleagues, that home birthing should not be allowed. What I DO think is that the changes in the maternity act effectively eliminated a mother’s choice of Lead Maternity carer and seriously diminished the experience-base of obstetrics. I cannot see that this was anything but an extremely detrimental move. That you cannot see that this was only a cost-saving measure and had nothing to do with quality of service means that you have swallowed the silly idea of the big bad doctors preventing the wonderful midwives from fulfilling their destiny. You don’t even seem to know that it was the Shipley government that implemented this act, not Helen Clark. It was driven by the rather strange market ideology of the health reforms of the day.

      My point about older midwives and, indeed, about doctor’s training is that experience is everything in medicine. It takes two years for a doctor to gain sufficient experience to be trusted with a patient alone and a further two or three before s/he can practice without immediate backup from another colleague. Yet a midwife graduates from an almost entirely academic environment and is then entrusted with two lives. This makes no sense at all to me. Unfortunately, you clearly have no idea what I am talking about, as you consider any nursing experience other than midwifery to be superfluous to the needs of a midwife. It seems to escape you that, had the Barlow’s midwife had any practical training in neonatal resuscitation or in emergency medicine, the Barlow’s horrible story would have been quite different.

      the solution to their lack of training is more training, not GP supervised births
      Had you bothered to read my post instead of reacting to it, you would see that I suggest more midwife training, not GP supervised births (unless that is the mother’s choice).

      For the record, I am 53. I have interacted (usually peaceably) with midwives from all walks of life and all levels of training, in far, far greater numbers than you. My last interaction with a midwife was four days ago. The rest of your suppositions about me are equally flawed.

      But then, you think Ms Guililland is a “voice of reason”, which gives me to conclude that your judgement is seriously impaired.

      • Amen

        Indeed that says it all. No one wants GPs back in ‘charge’ of birth, least of all GPS. But educated experienced people with insight to problems and with experience of solutions are the least any woman deserves in pregnancy.

        GPs do and should have a role in antenatal care. Who catches the baby makes little difference to anything but the care before during and after birth is crucial to the health and wellbeing of that pair. The level of experience (and knowledge) required to be an independent practitioner with no oversight from anyone is woeful in New Zealand.

        Shame

      • The Act brought in by Helen Clark was the Nurses Amendment Act in 1990. This Act allowed midwives to practise on their own. I do dimly remember now that the whole Lead Maternity carer thing came in later, due to a ballooning of costs because women were involving both GPs and midwives. I accept that the concept of a Lead Maternity carer was all about containing costs, and I see nothing wrong with that. We do not live in a world of infinite resources, and we cannot have all the choices we would like. You surely understood, though, what I was referring to when I mentioned Helen Clark, and also that the Nurses Amendment Act was not about containing costs.

        You state: “My post has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of home birthing over hospital delivery.” So? My comments on your post also had nothing to do with the merits of home birthing over hospital delivery. I have no idea what you’re on about here.

        I do accept, however, that you could have taken from my comments that I believed you were advocating that all births should be GP lead, but I actually did know you weren’t.

        You state: “Had you bothered to read my post instead of reacting to it, you would see that I suggest more midwife training, not GP supervised births (unless that is the mother’s choice).” Actually, you do suggest that GP obstetrics should be promoted again, presumably as part of the solution to your perceived problems with midwives.

        You contradict yourself over the Barlow case. In your post you say, “A more experienced midwife would probably not have handled the situation that developed any better than the younger one, but the more experienced one would have had the mother in hospital by the time things went pear-shaped.” However, in your response to my comment you say, “It seems to escape you that, had the Barlow’s midwife had any practical training in neonatal resuscitation or in emergency medicine, the Barlow’s horrible story would have been quite different.”

        Anyway, I do not see that training as a midwife precludes training in neonatal resuscitation or emergency medicine, and I find it difficult to believe that it does not include training in neonatal resuscitation already. Are you sure you’re not trying to blind me with bullshit? Also, full-on nursing training is not the only possible solution to deficits in training of midwives.

        As a taxpayer I do not want to pay GPs more to do a job that a midwife can do perfectly well. I have no argument with your statement that “experience is everything in medicine.” If there is a problem with midwives’ required level of experience or deficits in areas of their training, let’s fix that. If there are an inadequate number of appropriately experienced lead maternity carers in the system, maybe they need to be paid more. GPs can accept that payment or not as they choose.

        By the way, when you say, “you have swallowed the silly idea of the big bad doctors preventing the wonderful midwives from fulfilling their destiny,” you do a pretty convincing impression of being a “paternalistic bastard”. Also, you have given my considerable experience of childbirth no credence at all. That’s certainly bringing back a few memories.

        You state: “But then, you think Ms “Guililland is a “voice of reason”, which gives me to conclude that your judgement is seriously impaired.” Something tells me that you consider the judgement of anyone who disagrees with you to be seriously impaired. I did notice that only one other person (Johnnieboy) has challenged you in the comments. Your response was to put Johnnieboy down by stating that he had a lack of understanding of statistics. However, he was right and you were wrong. You have tried to put me down too, though I do accept that the tone of my comments may have inspired that. But judging from the general and unnatural absence of disagreement with you, my guess is you do that all the time.

        • Dragonfly:

          I’m sorry you feel put upon. Let me know when you have some sort of evidential argument (as opposed to your childbirth anecdotes) and I’ll stop immediately.

          Few midwives have any experience with neonatal resuscitation, even the older, more experienced ones. I would like to see a year of neonatal ICU as mandatory experience for new midwives. In the meantime, my point still stands. Experienced midwives may be no better at resuscitating babies, by they are usually better at recognising when they are in trouble.

          PS The reason why there is not a lot of disagreement with me in this thread (apart from you and Johnnieboy) is because I am the one citing actual evidence.

          • “I would like to see a year of neonatal ICU as mandatory experience for new midwives. ”

            Ditto. Having spent some years there myself, there is nothing quite so sobering. Everyone should have some concept of what its like when the shit hits the fan before they start turning on fans in the community.

            Most of the NNU nurses are nurse-midwives. And what a wise bunch

          • So what actual evidence would that be? A couple of breech births in Wellington. Some reminiscences from 40 years ago about how midwives used to know their place around real doctors. Some frothing at the mouth about bizarre new-age claptrap and anti-doctor feminists.

            From where I’m standing your so-called “evidence” all looks pretty anecdotal (and that’s in a good light and from a flattering angle), and as far as levels of evidence goes, yours appears to have dropped right off the bottom of the pyramid.

    • You think Garry Evans has no advisors when he comments on maternal and neonatal mortality? You think he doesn’t consult the best pathology, paediatric, obstetric, midwife minds when coming to his decisions? He is in no way uninformed

      He is a very thoughtful man with a very clear view of the law and he is not too frightened to say what needs to be said.

      People outside the profession are entitled to comment upon it. It’s not magic, there are clear risks, guidelines and accepted professional standards. Indeed coroners explicit job is to comment on the chain of events when things go wrong and make recommendations. There was in Wellington a cluster of baby deaths because of disastrous decisions made by midwives. He said so and made recommendations. Important ones. Ignored ones thus far, and this was 2005.

      He called for

      * An independent review of maternity services.

      * An audit of baby death rates relating to public and independent-midwife services. -No one wants to look at these figures, a whole system was created assuming the results would be better. At the coal face for many women it is worse. Especially in areas such as I work in when the women are uncomplaining and vulnerable – and do not receive the base care their midwives are funded for.

      * The re-integration of GPs into state-financed maternity care. – That is care, not taking over births

      * Internship and supervised practice for new-graduate midwives.

      These are sober and eminently sensible ideas from a man who has had to study every baby death in his decade as coroner, indeed now Chief Coroner. But you call them uninformed?

      No one is calling for the return to GP led births. We are calling for training and experience of more than 30 ‘facilitiations’ before one is allowed to deliver any woman any place any time without supervision. Midwives are working in isolation and without supervision past graduation

      If course its the ones with excess confidence to insight ratio that are the dangerous ones, in all walks of life.

      • Over the years I have repeatedly seen coroners make recommendations that prove to be impractical. For example, they will recommend that every hospital should have some enormously expensive piece of equipment because of a single death they dealt with that could have been averted if such equipment had been available.

        So when I heard an interview on National Radio on the issue of coroners and the advice they have access to, I was interested. Unfortunately, I can’t recall who the interviewee was. But the person did make the point that in NZ the coroner is not backed up by an office of experts in relevant areas, and is therefore liable to get things wrong.

        It is quite likely that the recommendations made by Gary Evans in 2005 have not been acted on because they were impractical, expensive and unnecessary (well, I wouldn’t know really, but I suspect Gary Evans doesn’t either). His call for the re-integration of GPs into state-financed maternity care, for example, was downright illogical.

        Yes, I’m sure he had advisors, but not necessarily the right ones. And I never said that people outside the profession are not entitled to comment on it. In fact I suspect the problem is that coroners do not consult enough people outside the medical profession – people such as statisticians and economists.

        It’s not just me who wasn’t impressed by Gary Evans that time. The then Health and Disability Commissioner Ron Paterson (who I have a lot of respect for) said he was “not aware of any glaring problems that required the full review Mr Evans sought.”

        • I’m interested that you voice those opinions on Mr Evans findings. Impractical? Having a safe maternity system? On what do you base that opinion?

          I know him, I know who he consulted, I know their findings and I know he talked to exactly the right people when making those recommendations.

          Pete Hodgson didnt agree but thats because money would be involved.

          Plenty of people working in the field have deep concerns about the system.

          Yes . You don’t know really. That much is true

          • You are misrepresenting what I have said. I never said it was impractical to have a safe maternity system. It is impractical though to have a safe maternity system with no regards to cost, and it is impractical to wildly spend money on something that may be of no benefit, when it could be spent on something else more effectively. I doubt that Garry Evans could tell you anything about the costs and benefits of his proposal – for example, who would miss out on what as a result of spending on his recommendations.

            I doubt also that he could tell you much (in a statistical sense) about the significance of two baby deaths (which you misleadingly called a cluster) in Wellington at that time – whether it was representative of deep-seated problems, or, simply, an essentially random “cluster”, or perhaps a localised problem.

            Because it pays to find out that stuff before you start throwing money at what might in fact be a chimera.

            I have no idea whether there are genuine problems in maternity care or not (yes, I realise I’m the odd one out here in that I don’t know absolutely everything about everything), but, sensing vested interests, I am very suspicious of the proffered solutions to these alleged problems.

            • So we shouldnt ensure midwives are supervised past the day of graduation – the day that in every other health profession the training actually begins – because it would cost too much?

              There were more than 2 baby deaths in that cluster, he commented specifically on those 2 breeches. There was enough concern about quality of maternity care in Wellington to provoke a review of services in 2008.

              The findings still stand, and nothing has changed.

        • In 2008 the CCDHB as a result of another dead breech baby, did a review of Maternity Services in the region

          In their findings they also recommended a period of compulsory supervision for midwives and improved communications between medical specialists and midwifery colleges which were poor.

          *Information provided to pregnant women about maternity
          services available is currently variable and sometimes
          inadequate.
          *Kenepuru and Paraparaumu Birthing Units’ access to
          emergency services needs to improve.
          *Relationships between health practitioners working across
          the spectrum of maternity care need to significantly
          improve in order to ensure seamless, safe and high-quality
          care for women.
          *To ensure safety for women and their babies, and
          appropriate support for new graduate midwives, there
          needs to be mandatory supervision (physical oversight)
          and mentoring for midwives in their first year of practice.
          *There are no common, evidence-based standards for
          maternity care to which all relevant health professional
          groups subscribe. These need to be developed jointly by
          the relevant colleges and the Ministry of Health, and
          compliance with them needs to be monitored by the
          Ministry of Health.
          *There is currently no provision of timely accurate
          information about maternity outcomes in New Zealand.

          in 2009 HDc made findings regarding a breech birth producing a dead baby that was done in water in Kenepuru in 2008. He criticised mentoring – he criticised the decision to carry out a delivery that was an obstetric emergency in a bath! “Neither Ms F nor Ms E expressly called for emergency back-up. ” Again a new graduate nurse with a ‘mentor’ on the phone. Mentoring is not compulsory and mentors dont need to be anywhere near the birth.

          “The adequacy of supervision in midwifery was identified as a national issue in the Ministry of Health’s “Review of the Quality, Safety and Management of Maternity Services in the Wellington area”. The Review noted that “currently a new graduate midwife is authorised to assist birthing women without any oversight. While for normal births this may be safe, it may not be safe for the birthing woman, her baby or the new graduate midwife if the latter, through inexperience, does not recognise and appropriately manage or refer a complication of pregnancy or delivery”

          “Recommendation
          I recommend that the Midwifery Council continue to review current arrangements for mentoring, support and oversight of new midwives.”

          How many times do we have to review and say the same things? Evans in 2005? CCDHB in 2008?
          HDC in 2009? Nothing has changed yet

          I guess all the people working in the field, the HDC and the coroners, the paediatric pathologists and physicians, the obstetricians they are all ‘uninformed’ too?

          • No, I never said that midwives should not be supervised past the day of graduation because it would cost too much. It is possible, for example, that it would be more cost effective (and possibly also more effective) to supervise midwives for longer than is currently the case than to pay GPs.

            I note that you have not responded to my suggestion that Garry Evans could tell you little about the statistical or economic aspects of his report. Instead you have said things like, “The findings still stand, and nothing has changed”, and “I guess all the people working in the field, the HDC and the coroners, the paediatric pathologists and physicians, the obstetricians they are all ‘uninformed’ too?” Why have you not addressed the point I actually made?

            However, I do accept what you say about the number of deaths being greater than two and therefore actually a cluster (I didn’t find that on Google), and that you did not deliberately misrepresent the situation (sorry). I also accept from your quotes that there may well be a case for increased supervision of new midwives. But, why is it that no matter what the problem there is always a call for increased involvement of GPs? It is like an asymptote to which we must always trend, and I’m tired of it. This call is never accompanied by evidence or logic or a cost/benefit analysis. What’s more this is a battle has been going on since before I had my first child 23 years ago, and I really think it’s time for GPs to just butt out.

            • We do lots of things in health that cost, because they are right.

              The coronoer, a lawyer trained in forensic, is not expected to make recommendations about funding or costings.
              He is, however , expected to make recommendations about causes of death, risk factors, safety issues, professional issues, deficits in training or individual performance, preventive factors. To prevent unnecessary deaths.

              He appears to do that quite well.

              Maybe the society wants its GPs more involved in maternity care? Maybe that is why every time something like this happens people call for doctors to become more involved again in childbirth? Maybe the society fears something has been lost and not replaced?

              NZers generally have a high level of trust and satisfaction with their doctors. Contrary to your own experience many women remember with fondness their family doctors involvement int he birth of their children. Many mourned the passing of the GP obstetrician. i worked with the last GP obstetrician in Wellington and his paitients wept that he wouldnt be able to deliver any more of their babies. Because he found himself in such a hostile environment continuing practice was not possible.
              I certainly feel strongly that family doctors have a very important role to play in maternity CARE, that pregnant women have just as many health risks and problems as unpregnant women, some significantly worsened by pregnancy. I do think that non-nurse midwives trained under the direct entry scheme have little knowlege about health and complicated, often multiple, medical problems that do impact pregnancy. And neither they should. But someone looking after that woman should.
              The person already caring for that woman before she got pregnant appears to me to be the perfect overseer of her medical care! Call me old fashioned.

              Society seems to disagree with you that GPS should butt out. The advances in childbirth safety were obstetric, doctors save lives all over the world when the shit hits the fan.

              Many of my patients would love me to deliver their babies, unfortunately it is just not possible for me to do so anymore. The environment is hostile to me as a doctor birth practitioner. not because thats what the women want. Not because I lack science, and skills and insight, and compassion ,and patient centredness, and wholism. And not because I have been present at over a thousand births and resucitated tens?? hundreds of infants

              Just because Im a doctor. And should butt out. Because i have nothing to offer that a woman straight out of midwife school with 30 facilitiations under her belt doesn’t thinks he knows already

  • 42 comments – surely a MacDoctor record.

    Take note – anyone who wants to boost their blog stats. Forget the Middle East, emissions trading and ‘rich pricks’ – midwifery is what gets the comments flooding in.

    • Indeed. Though I was toying with the idea of blaming Global Warming on Midwifery to see if I can better this…
      :-)

      • Don’t, whatever you do, get me started on global warming. Though, after a brief look at your archives on this subject, I have realised, to my horror, that I may actually be in general agreement with you on this issue. No … Please … No!!!!!!!!

        • I believe 8 exclamation marks is a confirmatory sign of madness. I’m sorry to have pushed you over the edge…

          • Yes, it’s a bit like waking up one day and realising you understand everything Judith Tizard ever said. The possibility of madness does have to be considered!!!!!!!!

            • dragonfly, In all this do we forget that many women don’t care if a midwife, doctor or the local milkman assisted in the birth of the baby, they only care that they have the training required to deliver that baby safely so they can hold it in their arms… and the ability to detect problems so the chance of a healthy mother and baby can be maximised.

              In a perfect world we would all love to hold our baby immediately. I am sorry you were not happy with the experience of your first birth, but what some women would give to have a baby at all.
              I do not wish to underestimate your strength of feeling on this, but this tragedy holds more weight with me.

              Some women have the opportunity of holding their baby taken away… some of us would wait a lifetime to have the chance to hold their child.. I would wait a lifetime..

              I have some healthcare knowledge and graduates in many medical areas would be grateful for the chance for more training and supervision. We should all aim for the best standards of healthcare we should prevent any deaths we can, allowing more mothers to hold their babies in their arms. i feel the best option would be combined Dr and midwife care.

              I’m sure you will reply and probably disagree, but lets do what we can to improve healthcare all around the world..

              • Sue, I fundamentally agree with you, in terms of best outcomes. But there comes a point at which the benefits gained from extra spending may be too small to justify, or may even be non-existent if powerful lobby groups (mentioning no names) have managed to have that funding directed to them.

                I did have one pregnancy in the era of combined GP and midwife care (before the Lead Maternity carer system was brought in), and it felt like complete overkill. I was bothered by the waste of resources at the time.

                One of the things I really care about is child welfare in this country, and it concerns me that so many children do not have access to adequate food, healthcare and housing. I am always interested in what the Child Poverty Action coalition has to say – they do great work.

                What I see is that spending on GP care for privileged middle class women, who do not really need it, will inexorably result in less spending elsewhere, perhaps, for example, on prevention of the terrible debilitating diseases such as rheumatic fever that too many children in NZ are afflicted by.

                As for my statement that it’s time for GPs to butt out altogether, well, I was only trying to wind people up, actually.

  • Some stats to illuminate the ongoing discussion although the above debate appears to be a good example of how the issues of maternity since the 1990 reforms have been sadly dominated by opinion rather than fact:
    Tony Ryall’s office has released information that in the period 1 July 2005 to 30 June 2009, there were around 267,000 births. During that same period ACC received 944 claims for a maternal treatment injury and 315 for a neonatal treatment injury.
    He points out that that level is just under 0.5 percent of births but that is about 1 in 200 births where the baby or mother is injured by the carers. Would you go to your dentist if there was a 1 in 200 change of being injured by him or her? Possibly not, but people don’t die from botched dental care, unlike botched births, where they can and do die. For many women, birth is far from a ‘normal life experience’.
    For more information visit the Health Select Committee submission by the consumer support network of (now) hundreds of families affected by poor maternity outcomes (no not just a few, dragonfly) at http://www.thegoodfight.co.nz

    • I’ll deal with the ACC stats first. A once-over-lightly assessment of these stats by people who are not qualified to do such an assessment is invalid and meaningless. I know something about data analysis, and I can’t be bothered saying any more about it.

      I did not have time to look extensively at thegoodfight website, which was not helped by the fact I can’t seem to print or copy from it. But I was appalled by what I did read of the HSC (Health Select Committee) submission. It is clear to me that the single individual named as an author of the submission is not in fact the author, and I’d like to know who the real authors are, because they should hang their heads in shame. The submission uses statistics selectively and misleadingly. In fact, Mark Twain’s “lies, damned lies and statistics” comes to mind. Here is an example:

      In the Supporting Data section the statement is made that baby deaths in 6 months of 2006 were higher than for any previous 6 months period for many years. Apart from the obvious utter unacceptability of comparing 6 month time periods in this manner because of seasonality issues, it got me wondering about statistical significance. So I followed the link to the Perinatal and Maternal Mortality Review Committee (PMMRC) report and found the statement, “Because a new methodology for ascertainment of deaths has been instituted, time trend data for New Zealand are not presented in this report.” So no assessment of statistical significance has been attempted, because it’s not possible. But the HSC submission conveniently omits any discussion of this, and instead presents their figure as simply “higher than for any previous 6 months period for many years.” Also from the PMMRC report, “The higher rate compared with the NZHIS provisional report for 2005 is probably not indicative of deterioration in perinatal health. It is more likely to result from an increased ascertainment of perinatal deaths using the recently introduced PMMRC methodology.”

      The HSC submission does in fact state, “The PMMRC report indicates that New Zealand’s perinatal mortality has probably been significantly under-reported during the years of the maternity reforms.” So the higher rate mentioned in the HSC submission is an artefact of previous under-reporting, yet the HSC deliberately misrepresents it as a genuinely higher rate, at the same time as they attempt to make something out of the under-reporting during the years of the maternity reforms. And why the artificial emphasis on “the years of the maternity reforms”? No doubt there was under-reporting prior to the reforms too.

      It doesn’t stop there. The HSC submission states, “Throughout the 1980s, New Zealand had a very low mortality rate compared with the average rate for comparable countries in the OECD. During the years of the maternity reforms, New Zealand’s perinatal mortality rate has levelled off. All other comparable countries have continued a steady decline with this effective marker of the effectiveness of any maternity system.”

      My guess is that New Zealand was ahead of these other countries for some time in terms of reducing infant mortality. Now NZ has levelled off and the other countries are catching up. No way can it be deduced from this that there has been some drastic failure of the maternity system. It is obvious, surely, that the trend could not have continued inexorably downwards at the same rate forever – there is no such thing as negative perinatal mortality. Also I note the suspicious repetition of “the years of the maternity reforms.” This submission has been written by people with an agenda.

      I wondered why the authors of the submission had focussed on rates of decline of perinatal mortality, as opposed to actual rates of perinatal mortality. I soon found my answer in the PMMRC report, which states, “Perinatal mortality rates in New Zealand are comparable with the rates reported in Australia and the United Kingdom.” The HSC submission makes no mention of this inconvenient little statistic.

      If I had the time to look at the remainder of the report in detail, I’m sure I would find it riddled with deliberate deceptions such as those I have already discussed (and I spotted many things that made me immediately sceptical when I did glance over it). But no need. If I catch someone lying once, then I know they’re a liar, and nothing they say can ever again have credibility.

      I cannot find any mention on the site of the most recent PMMRC report (probably because the stats in it don’t support the interests of those who compiled the HSC submission.) Anyway, for those who actually care about facts (which everyone here claims to), 2007 perinatal mortality rates were lower than 2006 rates. Further, the report states, “The decrease should be interpreted with caution, given that the 2006 rates were calculated based on only six months of data.” This is a great example of professional independence and honesty. Several contributors to this discussion could learn a lot from it.

  • Hi Dragonfly
    You raise several important points. As to how much the ACC data has been gone over by a ‘once -over-lightly’ approach with the data or interpretation, you would need to check with Tony Ryall who released both the original ACC data and his interpretation of it. As to why the PMMRC only released 6 months of perinatal data for the year in question, only they will have the answer to that question. The chair of the PMMRC has stated that the last year in which accurate maternity mortality data was collected was 1993 -in other words accurate data was collected prior to and in the early years of the reforms. This of course raises the issue as to why so much in the way of major changes has occured in maternity over so many years with no adequate baseline or accurate assessment along the way. And yes, there is an agenda of The Good Fight network- that the tears and grief of so many families will not be for nothing, that there will one day be a safer system. The aims of the network are stated on the website. If you only have a moment to glance at the website, look at the photos in the ‘legacies’ section but I should warn you, many PC systems take a great deal of time to upload them because there are so many.

    • The stories are intensely moving, and sort of beautiful. I won’t say any more about them as I would never want to accidentally hurt anyone who had lost a child.

      I have no problem with an agenda of wanting to prevent avoidable deaths – that’s what a good maternity system is all about. But if a group with vested interests manages to capture a too large share of available resources, then the maternity system will be diminished, not enhanced.

      And I see those vested interests at work in the calls for more GP involvement in childbirth. Increasing GP involvement in maternity care is not the main focus of the HSC submission, but it does get several mentions. The submission is deeply disturbing in its blatant and deliberate twisting of the facts. I do not believe that whoever was responsible for the misrepresentation of the available statistics can be basically well-intentioned. The level of dishonesty and manipulation involved is just too great. It really chills me actually. I doubt that this person’s agenda is the same as yours, and their aligning of themselves with your cause can only take away from its credibility.

      • The “vested interests” of um let’s say Live Mother Live Baby?

        All power to their arm!

        Get over your no money for nasty GPs agenda and get back thinking about live mother live baby.

        We have said several times, this is not a call for the doctorification of childbirth. It is a call for better antenatal care by people who understand what heal and risk is, and a call for supervision and training of midwives who are allowed to care for humans at the most dangerous time of their lives FROM THE DAY OF GRADUATION. In what other professional groups does this happen?

        We need a safer system. We need a better system. That will cost money. Better and safer first

        • Spud:
          At least I argue for my “agenda” in a coherent and reasoned fashion (mostly), unlike yourself who resorts almost entirely to arguments of an emotive and incoherent nature. It’s getting tedious. Anyway, say what you like now. I doubt that I will bother replying.

          • Emotive and incoherent?

            How interesting. Certainly gives some indication to me of your understanding of issues raised.

            Frees up more of my time

    • Could it be that MacD has, as my kids would say, pussied out?

      • I suspect found something more productive to do than trying to discuss fact with someone who has little interest in the same

      • MacDoctor is taking two papers for his postgraduate diploma and needs time to study – blogging and comments a little sparse at the moment. Priorities, you know.

        Feel free to play without me.

        • Fair enough. I never should have doubted you I see that now I see I was wrong about so many other things too I see that you MacD are the font of all knowledge that you were there at the Beginning that your word is Gospel I see that a few anecdotal case studies plus some reminiscences unearthed from prehistory plus some ranting about militant feminists carries all the weight of a randomised controlled trial no I don’t want a psychiatrist I want my GP I mean I want a psychiatrist plus my GP plus I want the taxpayer to build me a palace with gold-plated fittings how dare they refuse me how dare they those granite-hearted monsters with souls of splintered ice it’s just because I care I’m only thinking of everyone else that’s all it’s for their own good why can’t they see that and what is it with those bizarre claptrap speaking inferior ignoramuses what’s their problem who do they think they are why aren’t they bowing and scraping like they used to don’t they know I’m the ruling class I went to Kings after all what on earth has the modern world come to it’s gone to pot I can’t take it any more I know what I’ll start a blog I think I’ll call it MacDoctor even though Linux is so much better but my readers won’t know that of course they didn’t go to Kings I think I’ll … no please I’ll come quietly no not the padded room I’ll be good I promise I know I said that last time but this time I really mean it what do you mean it’s for my own good of course it isn’t you insane fools anyway only I’m supposed to say patronising stuff like that let me out let me out !!!!!!!!!!!!
          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Took a big breath to read that Dragonfly. Just one full stop and at the beginning. I think your motive on here is to try and antagonise everyone but they see straight through you. To even write that you find stories sort of beautiful from people who have taken the courage to share their stories of the loss of their children or injured children, is not antagonising just sickening.

            The topic is New Graduate Midwives going straight into self employment as an LMC and not having the right training to do this. Not your bitching and stirring.

            • I think (hope) most people would know what I meant when I said those stories are beautiful. Narratives of heart-breaking human experience, full of deep emotion, inevitably are beautiful in the sense that they inspire in you feelings of empathy, wonder and compassion, and are profoundly touching in a way that is difficult to put into words (and I did find it difficult to put into words). I have to say, it did occur to me at the time that there might be some inarticulate lowlife out there who would misinterpret (deliberately or otherwise) what I said. Someone who knows nothing of the wonderful complexities and subtleties of language and emotion. Someone like you.

              You state, “The topic is New Graduate Midwives going straight into self employment as an LMC and not having the right training to do this. Not your bitching and stirring.” That statement is downright cretinous – can you even read?

              Here’s some examples of where the topic that you think is the topic is not adhered to:
              From MacDoctor, first of all:
              “Allow GPs to charge above the midwife rate” and “Promote GP obstetrics again.” In fact he mentions GPs several times.

              Here’s some more, all made before I made my first comment:
              “It is a sad thing that most doctors miss out the cradle-to-grave experience these days.”
              “The issue for me wasn’t so much a shortage of GP care, but a shortage of care in general.”
              “Family doctors often find out their patients are pregnant by accident.”
              “Our caesarian rate is approaching 30% – when is it coming back down to the 12-15% promised if we took childbirth away from those nasty doctors?”
              “Doctors left maternity because they were patently unwanted there.”

              And here’s some more, all made after I made my first comment:
              “Women should be entitled to medical and midwife health checks when they are pregnant. But no medical checks are funded from GPs – those doctors that look after families for long periods of their lives.”
              “What women and babies need is a joined up HEALTH system, where antenatal care is provided by both doctors and midwives.”
              “Doctors look after families for a lifetime, they often know important health issues that are neither sought nor recognised by LMCs.”
              “… mothers lose the continuity of care that an obstetric GP can provide.”
              “… the choices of GPs are severely restricted.”
              “GPs do and should have a role in antenatal care.”
              “The re-integration of GPs into state-financed maternity care (called for by the coroner).”
              “Maybe the society wants its GPs more involved in maternity care? Maybe that is why every time something like this happens people call for doctors to become more involved again in childbirth?”
              “I certainly feel strongly that family doctors have a very important role to play in maternity CARE.”
              “Society seems to disagree with you that GPs should butt out.”
              “I feel the best option would be combined Dr and midwife care.”

              You state, “I think your motive on here is to try and antagonise everyone but they see straight through you.” See straight through what? I’ve been completely upfront about what I really think – there’s absolutely nothing to see through. And you probably don’t have the imagination or comprehension skills to understand this, but there are many ways other than the completely literal of saying something.

              And if you look carefully you’ll see that the only time I could be accused of trying to wind anyone up is when they have responded to me in an aggressive and stupid way. Where people have disagreed with me, but been polite in how they have gone about it, I have been polite back (I trust this explains why I’m not being polite to you).

              MacDoctor himself was clearly trying to antagonise people with his statements about “bizarre claptrap” and “anti-doctor feminists.” He even ended his post with “The MacDoctor awaits the tidal wave of rabid midwife comments with anticipation.” Why don’t you have a go at him about that? Oh, that’s right, he agrees with you, so it’s alright.

              And did you truly not realise that the lack of fullstops in my comment was intentional? I’m noticing a pattern here. You have misinterpreted my description of the stories as beautiful (and you have done this in a disgusting and offensive way that reflects badly on you). You have misunderstood that MacDoctor’s post and the comments on his post canvas many different topics. You have not understood that I deliberately did not include fullstops in my last comment. It’s like you have something missing.

              I realise you’d like to send me off to the Gulag for “re-education.” That’s not going to happen, fortunately.

              Now, if you want to find yourself sliced up and minced into petfood, courtesy of your own stupidity and obnoxiousness, you’re welcome to reply.

            • Give that Bumble Bee a prize

              Well played

  • I think this comment thread has ceased to provide anything remotely approaching a rational debate. Although i’m flattered that the thread is now longer than an average Kiwiblog thread, I think we are now all too silly. I shall now paternalistically and callously close all comments. You are all welcome to comment on other posts, if you wish – this is not a banning, merely a closure.

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