Broadcasting Substandards
I have just read on Dr Shaun Holt’s site that the Broadcasting Standards Authority has upheld a complaint against TVNZ about Shaun’s appearance on the Breakfast Show, discussing Chiropractors. To say the least, I am appalled. It is completely unconscionable that two lawyers and two journalists have called into question his medical expertise, without even an attempt to glean some medical opinion from elsewhere. Essentially, they have just taken the word of the chiropractors that Shaun is wrong, without establishing any understanding of the issues involved. They have just said, essentially, that anyone who believes that chiropractic manipulation of the neck is dangerous, is wrong.
The MacDoctor begs to differ. He knows a great deal about this issue and he would not recommend his dog have a chiropractor work on his neck, let alone his patients. Even though the risk of stroke is cited in the literature as low as 1:1.85 million, this is not relevant as there is absolutely no decent evidence that neck manipulation does any good at all. Therefore you are taking this small risk for NOTHING.
I am baffled as to how the BSA managed to reach their clearly stupid conclusion. Shaun was more than gracious to the chiropractors, conceding their expertise in lower back problems. The chiropractor was allowed to stage-manage a very slick sales pitch during his segment. Not one single useful question was asked of him. No questions like – is their any evidence that it works? What about the $500 million malpractice suit in the US?
If TVNZ were slanted in their reporting, it was towards the chiropractor, by virtually allowing him a free ride.
But the section in the BSA report that really gets my goat is this:
“[52] In the Authority’s view, the information supplied to it by Dr Holt (see paragraphs [29] and [30]) does not provide sufficient basis for his statement that chiropractic treatment “can cause stroke”. While the studies may have shown an association or correlation, they do not conclude unequivocally that there is a causal connection. The Authority also notes that both the complainant and Dr Doug Blackbourn maintained that the research shows that the correlation between chiropractic and stroke was no stronger than that between stroke and visiting a GP.
“[53] In these circumstances, the Authority finds that this statement was inaccurate. [emphasis mine]”
This is where the BSA attempts to set itself up as a judge of medical evidence. What they do not seem to appreciate is that the incidence of Vertebrobasilar artery dissection (VBAD) (a tear of the spinal artery in the neck) is very, very small (i.e. it is very rare). Consequently, it is very hard to run any sort of trial on the issue and the information we have is very sparse. A recent trial concluded that the risk of VBAD after a visit to a chiropractor was about three times greater than normal, but that this was similar to the risk of seeing a GP. This trial is quoted by Mr. Doug Blackbourn (Whose website, BTW, clearly suggests he can treat asthma – and calls him a “doctor”). Unfortunately for Doug, the conclusion that the risk is similar is based on the false assumption that the likelihood of someone with a dissecting VBA visiting a doctor is the same as them visiting a chiropractor. Yet less than half of dissecting VBAs present with solely neck pain (most present with a headache at the back of the head). The similarity of incidence is therefore deceptive as far, far fewer VBAD cases from the total pool of such cases will present initially to a chiropractor rather than a doctor. The conclusion of the authors is therefore likely to be wrong and there is probably a causal link between neck manipulation and VBAD.
In addition, the BSA do not seems to appreciate that, in the absence of good studies, one has to rely on anecdotal data. This is the data that Shaun was quoting and which they dismissed out of hand. Should they have bothered to inquire of any neurosurgeon, they would have been told that the wealth of anecdotal evidence is very worrying and is certainly not easily brushed off. Here is an example. These are not wild internet speculations, but well-researched and published cases. One of them is the now famous half a billion dollar lawsuit.
The point here is that the BSA has no brief to try and assess the quality of a technical debate. This is something that should concern any professional who is asked to give his expert opinion on TV. We give those opinions in good faith and we do not expect to have to defend ourselves to the media equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition. It is especially irritating to try and place the debate in accessible terms for laymen to comprehend, only to have people who do not know the first thing about the issue pick apart your every word, regardless of the fact that you have been unable to speak in precise scientific terms.
There are not a lot of professional people who are as able as Shaun to come across well in the sound-bite orientated world of TV. Should the BSA persist in attempting to analyse the scientific content of professional opinions in this highly inappropriate manner, you may rest assured there will be fewer. They have just perpetrated a grave disservice to scientific representation and debate on TV. Shame on them.
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Sep 24 09 12:54 am
Hey come on, you are really stretching in making your assumptions regarding how the results of studies regarding VBA incidence are skewed, as you going up against the Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010- the world’s most sophisticated and extensive research regarding neck injury and treatment ever conducted! 35000 research citations, and additional studies including one specifically on chiros and VBA.
That is all any chiropractor has to rely on- what could you or Dr Holt do to hold a candle up to the quality of their research on the issue of VBA? Or to their assertions regarding the efficacy of chiropractic? (which effectively completely redeemed them regarding all the issues you raised above)
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/tocrender.fcgi?iid=162425
Risk of Vertebrobasilar Stroke and Chiropractic Care
Results of a Population-Based Case-Control and Case-Crossover Study
“Conclusion. VBA stroke is a very rare event in the population. The increased risks of VBA stroke associated with chiropractic and PCP visits is likely due to patients with headache and neck pain from VBA dissection seeking care before their stroke. We found no evidence of excess risk of VBA stroke associated chiropractic care compared to primary care.”
Need we talk about this any more?
Sep 24 09 4:05 am
Great post, MacDoctor. I was quite stunned at the BSA decision, it’s like a minor version of the Simon Singh case.
Sep 24 09 8:07 am
Johnnieboy: I actually have the full article and have read it. It is a meta-analysis of the data available on VBAD. If you actually read the article, instead of quoting their misleading conclusion you would know that their main difficulty was the lack of power of most of the studies due to the rarity of VBAD. It does not exonerate Chiropractic, nor does it have anything to say about its efficiency.
My observations on its conclusions are still valid. The conclusion presupposes that a patient with headache and neck pain is as likely to see a chiropractor as they are a GP. This is simply not valid for the reasons I have stated.
This merely emphasises my point about the BSA. There is no way two lawyers and two journalists can decide on the validity of this sort of information, and they have no mandate to try.
Sep 24 09 8:46 am
Many thanks for your support
Sep 24 09 10:39 am
I would imagine that at least one or two of the members of the BSa probably visit a chiropractor every two weeks.
My father has been seeing a chiropractor for about twenty years for the same problem that never goes away (funny that) and requires him to come back every two weeks for the rest of his life. He wont admit that it is doing him no good except emptying his wallet of some money.
Sep 24 09 11:11 am
Imagine if they applied the same criteria to Global Warming scarifiers – hell John Campbell’s show would be before the BSA every week.
Andrei´s last blog ..Nanny Roundup
Sep 24 09 12:59 pm
“The conclusion of the authors is therefore likely to be wrong and there is probably a causal link between neck manipulation and VBAD”.
How about this (highly misleading) section,
“Our results should be interpreted cautiously and placed into clinical perspective. We have not ruled out neck manipulation as a potential cause of some VBA strokes. On the other hand, it is unlikely to be a major cause of these rare events. Our results suggest that the association between chiropractic care and VBA stroke found in previous studies is likely explained by presenting symptoms attributable to vertebral artery dissection. It might also be possible that chiropractic manipulation, or even simple range of motion examination by any practitioner, could result in a thromboembolic event in a patient with a pre-existing vertebral dissection. Unfortunately, there is no acceptable screening procedure to identify patients with neck pain at risk of VBA stroke.37 These events are so rare and difficult to diagnose that future studies would need to be multicentered and have unbiased ascertainment of all potential exposures. Given our current state of knowledge, the decision of how to treat patients with neck pain and/or headache should be driven by effectiveness and patient preference”.
In other words- this is a non-issue, lets get on with investigating something, anything of real value other than this issue. Who do you think we should agree with MacDoc- the esteemed professors or you?
Are they really so far off the mark with their conclusion? Is it really so unconvincing? Previous studies may have been underpowered, but what about the BJD meta-analysis?
“The study base includes an entire population over a 9-year period representing 109,020,875 person-years of observation. Despite this, we found only 818 VBA strokes, which limited our ability to compute some estimates and bootstrap confidence intervals”.
“In the month before their stroke, only 16 (2.0%) of our cases had seen only a chiropractor, while 20 (2.4%) had seen both a chiropractor and Primary Care Physician, and 417 (51.0%) had just seen only a PCP”.
This is a total non-issue.
Sep 24 09 3:15 pm
“Shaun was more than gracious to the chiropractors, conceding their expertise in lower back problems”
Hardly much of an endorsement considering that in his estimation their expertise and understanding of spine problems obviously completely stops past the base of the neck and up to the brain. As a result chiros know what they’re doing at the bottom, but run out of time to learn about what’s going on at the top, resulting in dead patients. Hmmm, and pigs may fly.
Sep 24 09 6:07 pm
From DC’s Improbable Science(http://www.dcscience.net/?p=2262#more-2262 – sorry, have no idea how to do hyperlinks!), discussing the Holt case:
On the issue of VBA dissection/stroke following chiropractic treatment, I see that a few years back a reasonable number of Canadian neurosurgeons issued a statement highlighting the risks here (http://www.ecmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/166/6/794).
And those interested in other claims for chiropractic treatment might also read this compendium from Ben Goldacre: http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/we-are-more-possible-than-you-can-powerfully-imagine
alison´s last blog ..science-based medicine vs the ‘natural’ kind
Sep 24 09 6:27 pm
Johnnieboy: Who do you think we should agree with MacDoc- the esteemed professors or you?
If authority was all it took to be right then the BSA should have never issued their report as the clear authority here was Shaun.
I am not exactly sure what your problem is. The study we are talking about clearly sates that the paucity of data makes it impossible to provide meaningful statistics. It’s conclusion therefore is entirely speculative. Frankly, as a working GP, I like my interpretation of their facts better than their interpretation, because I think their inexperience of general practice has lead them to make wrong assumptions.
Be that as it may. The point of my post is that the issue is quite debatable but is also very technical. There is no way that the BSA should be attempting an opinion on this matter. It is bad enough having the clowns at HDC trying to do it without the media pitching in.
As a result chiros know what they’re doing at the bottom, but run out of time to learn about what’s going on at the top, resulting in dead patients. Hmmm, and pigs may fly.
And you have no knowledge of anatomy.
Sep 24 09 8:12 pm
“…there is absolutely no decent evidence that neck manipulation does any good at all”
My problem is that I think your position on chiropractic efficacy and VBA incidence is bordering on being intellectually indefensible in light of the BJD, and your assertion that the professors who conducted the study were not working as GPs or surgeons at the time, and have misinterpreted their own research is also far-fetched.
The BJD authors accepted a number of studies on manual therapy including chiropractic that indicated clinically relevant outcomes for patients, and lists them on page S136. It only takes a cursory look through the document to see that the authors have accepted studies that show chiropractic producing positive outcomes for patients, including in one case better results than mobilisation, and have concluded that manual therapy is more effective than not. What’s your interpretation- are they just trash talking?
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2271098&blobtype=pdf
Noone has heard boo out of critics of chiropractic regarding BJD since it was released (especially DC’s improbable science, quackometer etc), and as a result it is easy to see why it was submitted as evidence to the BSA.
Sep 24 09 9:54 pm
Johnnieboy:
We are talking about two different articles. The one on VBAD is here
The BJD article is not about complications except in passing. Although you are superficially correct, a closer examination of the trials would show you that it is the low-powered trials with small numbers that produce positive results for chiropractic techniques and the larger, more robust trials are almost invariably equivocal. The conclusion appears to have given equal weight to these small positive trials when comparing them with the larger physiotherapy trials. I note that 5 of the twelve authors are registered chiropractors whereas only one of the twelve is a physiotherapist.
The Canadian Chiropractic Society guidelines, itself, said “the GDC concluded that the scientific base for chiropractic cervical treatment of neck pain was not of sufficient quality or scope to “cover” current chiropractic practice comprehensively”. So clearly chiropractors are not as convinced of the validity of their practice as you are.
Sep 24 09 11:18 pm
“So clearly chiropractors are not as convinced of the validity of their practice as you are”.
I don’t think Dr Holt or yourself really understand how a NZ-trained chiropractor feels about these issues, but I do (I know some very well). They regard these arguments as a waste of time, as chiropractors don’t have to justify themselves to medical doctors at all. Chiros regard themselves as doctors of chiropractic, in a field that your average GP really knows next to nothing about- GPs get taught spinal manipulation in a weekend course, while learning to adjust the spine is most of what chiropractors learn about for 5 years in NZ. They don’t regard themselves as beholden to any medical doctor or even specialist when making a clinical diagnosis within their field of expertise (yes, they do make them).
So it is perfectly understandable that the CCS mentions that the scientific base was lacking in that area- fundamentally many chiropractors don’t respect modern medical research as being useful for looking a the efficacy of chiropractic as the medical profession does. They regard it as unsuited to the task. Some feel it cheapens what they have already learned to have to argue about chiropractic on terms that the medical profession understands. They are not portraying themselves as experts in pharmacology, while the medical profession regards itself as the sole arbiter of whether chiropractors know anything about the human spine!
This quote from the judges who presided over the NZ Commission of Inquiry into Chiropractic 1979 still rings true today I reckon,
“The educational background of the present-day medical practitioner does not equip him to evaluate the refinements of a chiropractor’s skill in diagnosis and treatment of spinal dysfunction of biomechanical origin”.
Would that any critics of chiropractic knew enough about the level of education of any NZ chiropractor to comment on this issue.
Sep 25 09 12:03 am
Johnnieboy, I’m not a doctor, I’m a lowly English Lit student, so I’m lurking and leaving serious criticism up to MacDoctor and others who have the expertise. But even I’m seeing something seriously and transparently wrong with that last post. In describing this debate from a chiropractor’s perspective, you’re suddenly talking about medicine as it’s a relativist wonderland where every opinion is equally true. You’re also saying quite clearly that chiropractors simply dislike medical scrutiny.
Well, yes. Perhaps they do.
That doesn’t mean everyone should simply stop scrutinising chiropractic claims. I’m beginning to wonder if you’d take statements like what follows as serious grounds from exempting faith healing from medical scrutiny:
“The educational background of the present-day medical practitioner does not equip him to evaluate the refinements of a faith healer’s skill in diagnosis and treatment of spiritual and physical dysfunction of demonic origin”.
Sep 25 09 12:23 am
Johnnieboy:
They don’t regard themselves as beholden to any medical doctor or even specialist when making a clinical diagnosis within their field of expertise (yes, they do make them).
And yet they make clinical assessments on people and call themselves doctors without any medical training at all. If you want to get up a real doctors nose, then that’s the way to do it.
fundamentally many chiropractors don’t respect modern medical research as being useful for looking a the efficacy of chiropractic as the medical profession does
And therein lie the rub. Chiropractors feel they are not subject to rigorous scientific discipline. That can only be because what they believe has no scientific basis at all. It merely sounds plausible, in much the same way as Dr. Majesto’s patent hair restorer…
Sep 25 09 12:52 am
Matty,
“You’re also saying quite clearly that chiropractors simply dislike medical scrutiny”
No, I’m not. I said, “fundamentally many chiropractors don’t respect modern medical research as being useful for looking a the efficacy of chiropractic as the medical profession does”. So it’s a question not of like or dislike, but of the intellectual underpinnings from which they arrive at that conclusion. You omitted to address those I see, while inferring that their conclusion could only be based on irrational emotion rather than their own understanding and training.
“In describing this debate from a chiropractor’s perspective, you’re suddenly talking about medicine as it’s a relativist wonderland where every opinion is equally true”.
No, I’m not. You’re having a reaction to a chiropractor and an NZ judge actually having their own opinion, I see. I’ll admit it’s fun to watch!
“That doesn’t mean everyone should simply stop scrutinising chiropractic claims”.
Never said they should stop. I think the BJD is a study of huge importance.
Sep 25 09 1:16 am
“Chiropractors feel they are not subject to rigorous scientific discipline”.
That’s not what I said. Chiropractors only reject the medical paradigm as it applies to chiropractic, not the scientific method, which is applicable to any field of knowledge. You guys don’t own the scientific method.
You want to explain why chiropractors are also professors of science educated and conducting uni research within NZ concerning chiropractic? What about the 3 or 4 medical professors who did the BJD who are also chiropractors? What about the professors of science and the cardio thorassic surgeon who teach at the NZ chiropractic college? You should interview one and get their testimony as to how unscientific their chiropractic education was. It’s a shame that you couldn’t post a blog of their answer to your questions though- bit hard to type all the nuances of mocking laughter in a blog post.
Sep 25 09 1:58 am
‘You’re having a reaction to a chiropractor and an NZ judge actually having their own opinion, I see. I’ll admit it’s fun to watch!’
Have all the fun you wish, it’s coming at your own expense. Chiropractors and BSA panelists have every right to their opinions about medicine, however they also have a social responsibility to ensure people are not misinformed about the scope of therapies like chiropractic.
‘Chiropractors only reject the medical paradigm as it applies to chiropractic, not the scientific method, which is applicable to any field of knowledge.’
Whysovague? What do you mean ‘the medical paradigm as it applies to chiropractic’? Do you mean the way that current medicine relies on scientific evidence? No, clearly that’s not what you mean, because you go on to suggest that the scientific method is what scientific chiropractic researchers wish to use.
Am I being dragged slowly towards a long-winded, specious, superficially feasible ramble about the far-reaching effects of vertebral subluxation and the human body’s never-mechanically-described ‘natural healing abilities’? Because I freely admit right now, I’m not qualified to count angels dancing on the heads of pins.
I have no idea what you mean. I’m tempted to forfeit on the basis of disbelief and confusion. I need a cup of tea.
Sep 28 09 11:09 am
what a circus. The grounds of debate is not science here, Dr Holt passed personal opinion on national TV. What he said about chiropractic was basically he’s not personally happy and I will tell the the masses via TV and use my scientific perch to hold ground. The problem is he acted unprofessional and that is why the reaction. He started well but than got a little too excited. The BSA will get involved because that is their job. Its not a chiro or science thing, they will have resources to mediate and act accordingly. I’m bored just talking about it.
Infact, I think Holt is alright, he’s confident and stands up for his beliefs/lab tests but until he can comfortably talk with a ‘chiropracy person’ and not skip a heart beat, drop the ego and C class celebrity status and discuss a few points (maybe over a beer)than he is no better than a hot headed angry chiro who hates the medical scientific community. Just check out his naturaltherapies blog..thats one angry science dude.
Oct 5 09 12:59 pm
as Franko points out, this is not about science, its about opinions. “The MacDoctor begs to differ. He knows a great deal about this issue and he would not recommend his dog have a chiropractor work on his neck, let alone his patients”…
Is it anti “Chiropractic” or anti manipulation??? The convenience of opinions are just that…. and a little information to back it up is irresponsible. Just as a minority group of Chiropractors say they can treat asthma, ear infections etc, the use of a case study to justify a point of view does not make their opinion more valid.
I can accept caution in regards to manipulation as there are risk factors, however other professions also manipulate,
“Vertebral artery dissections after
chiropractic neck manipulation
in Germany over three years”
J Neurol (200■) ■: 0–0
DOI 10.1007/s00415-006-0099-x
This is an interesting article because it states “Chiropractic manipulation” however it pays to read the whole article. In 50% of the artery dissections the manipulation was performed by Orthopedic Surgeons, only 4% of were performed by Chiropractors.
Again I too am using a single example to highlight a point. Although I would assume the research is conveniently weak, poorly constructed, biased by the researcher… all the arguements that both camps reel off to discredit the position.
So if Macdoctor, Dr Shaun Holt etc are saying caution should apply to manipulation thats ok, if they are saying all Chiropractors and Chiropractic as a profession are/is dangerous via emotive use of neck manipulation as a vehicle then it is illogical and spurious.
Oct 5 09 3:12 pm
“Just check out his naturaltherapies blog..thats one angry science dude.”
What a bizarre comment – the blog is 90% about complementary therapies that work and I’ve published a book on the subject.
But I certainly get extremely angry with quacks – I’m just finishing a book on complementary therapies for people with cancer (there are lots that have good evidence that they help) and the way some quacks rip off vulnerable people is evil, whereas others genuinely want to help but are misguided and cause harm by giving bad advice.
Oct 7 09 9:56 am
Holt just calm down mate. Your willing use of “quack” and “evil” shows just how dated you are. Grow up and show a bit of integrity. This circus of debate was all about your ‘personal opinion and now you are upset about the reaction?,and the sad thing…did you even publish a book? Dont let your ego get in the way of actually promoting that book, take a dept breath and refocus. I did have time for you initially but now youre just an angry clown on a big fat elephant named evidence based science. And why the health mess today holt? time big elephant answers questions, because the science it eats is not having much impact on the state of health..just look at chronic disease stats. All this blog is stomping ground for idiots like us to vent steam. The ‘people’ not the science,chiro,quack, or circus clown, decide the fate of us all. over
Oct 7 09 11:03 am
Hey, whoa up there Franko, vitriol is not going to achieve anything…. I agree with some of what Shaun Holt remarks on and some I dont….
It is certainly idealic to take a moral stand as Shaun is/has, my only criteria is the same yardstick must be applied across the comparative modalities, allopathic to alternative. As a Cancer patient, I can vouch for the mental state that people find themselves, the unknown, the fear and vulnerability. But that is a different topic to validity and reliabilty of musculoskeletal interventions and the outcomes.
Oct 7 09 11:54 am
you speak right dwelluponit, your yardstick (which is you neutral standpoint) clears out the nonsense across the the whole field.
True story, this chiro was wanting to set up shop in a gym (this gym already had physio) physio found out and did a ‘Dr Holt’…stokes,quacks etc to the gym owner. End result = no chiro in gym. The irony = physio now offers ‘spine manipulation’ on their already extensive menu. Its a power/business thing (physio are trying to respond to public demand based on results, ok lack of science?!) and fair enough, ching ching
Bohoo chiro. But this i say blog heads.. I’d rather have a 5 year trained professional look at my teeth, just like I’d only see a chiro to manipulate my spine, and I’d rather go to Africa to see a real elephant (not sure where thats going)
Oct 7 09 1:10 pm
Hhmmm well you cant help business decisions I guess. However, this is the crux of all these arguments. I challenge anyone to find research articles that demonstrates efficacy of any Physiotherapy modality (im sure Macdoctor has an opinion becasue he should know about this)…. all professions are limited by the same factor, there is limited bonfide research with demonstratable efficacy related to musculoskeletal management or musculoskeletal medicine. Please notice I differentiate between the groups!!!!
And can someone tell me what the difference is between an Orthopedic manipulation, Physiotherapist manipulation, Osteopathic manipulation, Chiropractic manipulation, GP manipulation, cause I would really like to know…..
Oct 7 09 5:47 pm
Dwelluponit:
The difference between physio manipulation and chiropractic manipulation is about $60 an hour…
Seriously though. Physios make no outlandish claims for their treatment and seem willing to try to find the best way to treat patients by exploring various treatment modalities with randomised controlled trials (RCTs). In general, chiropractors shun RCTs in favour of anecdotes and cases series. Some of the few RCTs done on lower back manipulation indicate there is some short-term benefit from it. The trials on neck manipulation are all small and equivocal, hence my aversion to chiropractic neck manipulation. Note that I may be wrong here, and neck manipulation actually is worthwhile but there just doesn’t seem to be any evidence for it.
If Chiropractors got over their aversion to decent scientific trails and abandoned their absurd, unproven claims (at least until they have some evidence for them) then doctors like myself and Shaun Holt would not give them such a hard time.
Oct 7 09 6:22 pm
So, is there a difference in the modality of a manipulation between physio, osteo, GP,chiro etc ??? not the claims of outcomes just the technique???
And did you find any research that demonstrates efficacy of physiotherapy modalities???
Im curious as to how one manipulation of one profession is different to another, and this relates to manipulation and not mobilisation…
in the immortal words of Pauline Hanson “Please Explain”
Oct 7 09 6:35 pm
Dwelluponit:
More than one question mark is the sign of a disturbed mind.
As I am neither a physio , nor a chiropractor my answer is hearsay – but my understanding is that chiros use considerably more force on the actual joints and bones than physios, who seem to mostly work on muscles.
In terms of efficiency and outcomes for lower back manipulation, there seems little difference between chiropractors and physios in terms of the (temporary) relief they provide.
Oct 8 09 11:54 am
Yo macdoctor, I agree, the chiro visit is worth $60 more than a physio visit when it comes to manipulation. And with regard to your “..but my understanding is that chiros use considerably more force on the actual joints and bones than physios, who seem to mostly work on muscles” are you referring to manipulation or just general treatment? I bet your understanding of why your car tyre seems to wear more on side than the other is the fault of the tyre, and not the wheel alignment.What do you know macdoctor?
Oct 8 09 12:25 pm
sorry dwelluponit, to answer your question,its not the manipulation (thats only a limited technique that varies hugely) its how its used. So the difference is the objective
i.e when people like macdoctor finally have their uneven tyre looked at, they usually replace the tyre (cheaper, less fuss and pain free asap) and get back on the road. However, those with more understanding would ask why? and have all 4 wheels aligned and even the stress…better performance. Sorry for the simplistic boring story. Scott Dixion has a chiro in the pits every race, why? Tiger woods has a chiro on tour 24/7 why?
Not pain, their objective is performance. Macdoctor, go swing a club this weekend, your body is under the exact same stress as woods.. the difference is macdoctors has an undiagnosed chip on the shoulder, this tilts his posture and limits his potential. he blames the clubs and rubs 30% stronger antiflamme gel all over his body and carries on..thanking his cheap physio
Are you planning on developing some sort of logical argument anytime soon? Or is abuse all we can expect from you? If the latter, I should remind you that trolls will be shown no mercy
Oct 8 09 1:59 pm
Franko… I was going to wait until tomorrow as I am interested in furthering the discussion with Macdoctor, however…
Socrates was known to have said “if you wish to argue with me define your terms”
A manipulation is a defined as a high velocity low amplitude thrust, regardless of the practitioner performing the event. Conversely a mobilisation is the movement of a joint through its range of motion…. this is probably what macdoctor was referring too, although I dont know for certain.
The objective is entirely a mute point…. manipulation is a technique. A SPANNER undoes/tightens nuts and bolts, thats the tool, why a person using that spanner wishes to tighten / loosen the nuts and bolts is irrelevant to the spanner. If the spanner overtightens the nut and burrs the thread is that the fault of the spanner or the objective of the operator?????(caution crazed mind at work) In this case, it is the wrong tool, not the objective, the spanner had to much leverage.
As per usual the conversation denigrates to blah this and blah that…. as for Scott Dixon,Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong using Chiropractors, the All Blacks use physiotherapists and sports Drs… a persons preference is just that, THEIR preference.
As Shaun Holt points out on his National Radio broadcast, placebo,which perhaps isnt the correct terminology, as a placebo is inert and should have no measurable effect. (Im sure Shaun may explain in more depth how Placebo could apply). From a psychosocial perspective a patients EXPECTATION and MEANING play an enormous part of the effectiveness/outcome of a pharmacological, therapeutic, non therapeutic, or percieved intervention by the patient i.e Dr wearing a white coat and seen to be injecting a substance to a IV drip with an accompanying explanation.
I would also like to point out to any Physiotherapists who may have taken exception to my previous posts, this psychosocial factor is significant to their patient outcomes.
Oct 8 09 6:59 pm
Dwelluponit: a placebo is inert and should have no measurable effect.
Placebos do have a measurable effect, which is precisely why we do trials measuring things against placebo, so that we can demonstrate a treatment is working, rather than just having a placebo effect.
Admittedly designing adequate placebo treatments for physical modalities such as chiropractic and physiotherapy is problematic, but not unsolvable.
There are several trials where back manipulation has been measured against “sham” manipulation and shown some degree of efficacy against the placebo treatment.
Oct 8 09 9:16 pm
thanks for the troll warning macdoctor. and an apology. Using you as the example is not called for. I’m only meeting the bar (not raising it) with my comments, the guts of this blog is still opinion not science. dwelluponit has motivated me to go back and learn a bit of greek, Socrates ‘True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us’
Oct 8 09 9:28 pm
Franko: Apology accepted
This blog attempts (and sometimes fails) to be reasoned opinion. This attempt at looking at the facts makes this a science blog, in the sense that most science is not about facts, but about reasoned opinion.
Pure research scientists will probably recoil in horror at that last statement, but the statement is true as soon as you place science in the real world. You only have to read a few medical studies to realise that the section marked “conclusion” really means “my opinion based on the evidence that I have just accumulated”.
Oct 9 09 1:08 pm
Hi macdoctor,
yes your description outlines the general idea of placebo. Although a better realisation of placebo versus expectation and meaning is from this trial.
An analgesic trial;
control group
group A; given analgesic unknowningly
group B; given analgesic knowningly
group C; given placebo unknowningly
group D; given placebo in same manner as group B
The results were suprising, mostly because the differences between administration of the analgesic showed a marked improvement for group B.
Group D had results similar to group A, although the effects wore off quicker with group D ?????????? (got this question mark thing going on)
So, which one is a placebo by your definition? The confounding factor of expectation and meaning highlights how psychosocial factors can alter studies. Therefore, it surely makes research studies done on manipulation and “sham” manipulation weaker due to this confounding factor.
So back to your inference that your opinion is based on “reasoned opinion”. My next thought is how reasonable is it to say ALL chiropractors, ALL physiotherapists, and what happened to the Osteopaths? An opinion given from a position of authority stating “ALL”, never, when using inductive reasoning is floored from the outset and also from a logical process.
As I have discovered during my Dip MSMT Otago, practitioners are interested in gaining more knowledge, we are confronted with similar limitations, although with different skill sets and we certainly have our patients as our single focus.