Murdering the Murderer
Murdering the Murderer. I’m sure that will be the justification of Scott Roeder, the man alleged to have gunned down America’s most notorious abortionist, Dr George Tiller – ironically while he was ushering people into church. I heartily disapproved of Dr Tiller, but there is absolutely no justification for the barbarity of this act. It is nothing but a callous, brutal murder by a man whose motives will have little in common with the various anti-abortion groups, no matter how this will be portrayed.
Anita on Kiwipolitico is already likening Tiller’s death to the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King. Frankly, I think that is a gross insult to the memory of Martin Luther King, who would, undoubtably, have been utterly horrified by Dr. Tiller. Martin Luther King was a selfless man whose ambition was to free both black and white people from the tyranny of racial hatred. George Tiller’s interest in “Woman’s Rights” was entirely motivated by the enormous amount of money he made from it. I do not consider him to be an ethical doctor, let alone a worthy human rights activist.
There is no good medical reason for performing a late term medical abortion. None at all. Every medical problem “solved” by late term abortion could be more safely dealt with by a normal vaginal delivery or a Caesarian section. The only reason to perform such an abortion is to ensure that the baby (for such it is at this stage) is still-born. Therefore those pro-choicers who point proudly to Tiller’s record of performing thousands of these abortions safely have rather missed the point. Every one of these women were subjected to an additional medical procedure to kill their baby in the womb. This procedure has no medical benefit for the woman at all – it does not make the induced still birth easier (evidence suggests the opposite). It is therefore an extra risk undertaken purely to kill the baby. If partial birth abortions are being performed to protect the mother (the only legal reason they can be performed) then this procedure is not only unethical, but illegal.
And for those who wish to point out that Tiller was acquitted of charges of illegality in his Abortion Clinic in March of this year, Tiller was acquitted because the prosecution was accusing him of not using two independent doctors opinions as to whether the abortion was to save life or a major organ system (of which Tiller predominantly used the mental health issue as an “organ system”). It was shown that the other doctor was technically not an employee of the clinic, although most of his income was derived from providing assent for these abortions.
The court case did not address the actual legality of the abortion methods themselves.
The abortion issue is one that always produces very polarised reactions. Inevitably there are going to be marginally sane extremists on both sides of the argument. Anita at Kiwipolitico would like to blame this murder on the anti-abortion lobby, but there is no doubt in my mind that both sides of the divide are responsible for the toxic nature of this argument. Both parties use slogans and inflammatory argument to advance their cause and neither side seems willing to consider the other’s viewpoint. Violence is the shameful result of the lack of sanity in the debate.
Until we all sit down and find a compromise that we can all live with (but that none of us will probably like!), we will not see an end to this internecine battle.
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Jun 1 09 4:46 pm
Dr, in her comment responding to yours she says that there isn’t such a comparison, either by her or by di Franco.
Jun 1 09 5:00 pm
Wow, that’s a misinterpretation of my post bordering on wilful, and one which I think I had already clarified, but as you’ve decided to repost your misinterpretation let me try again.
I posted three verses of an Ani DiFranco song called Hello Birmingham. I can’t see anyway in which it can be interpreted to liken Martin Luther King to an abortion doctor (or vice versa), but in case you’re just confused about the whole meaning… it talks about needing a Martin Luther King in response to the killings which had recently happened in and near her hometown, a town in which Martin Luther King had been involved in a major human rights campaign and was famously jailed.
Any sensible interpretation would be that that we need another iconic charismatic leader who will advance civil and human rights.
I hope that clarifies things nicely, although I’m honestly not sure how you got to your interpretation
Anita’s last blog post..A bullet came to visit a doctor in his one safe place
Jun 1 09 5:07 pm
MacDoctor, would you please explain the reason or motive for a late term abortion? It is very unusual for a woman not to know she is pregnant in the first three months. I understand most fetal abnormalities can be detected in that same period. If a woman does not choose to have an abortion early what motivates her to change her mind?
Jun 1 09 5:12 pm
Oh, and while I’m at it… I place the blame for George Tiller’s death squarely in the hands of the person who shot him. Social movements don’t kill people, people kill people.
In terms of culpability for the whole sorry mess; I agree there is shared culpability for the vitriol and hatred. The escalation to physical violence and killing, however, was the conscious tactical choice of a small extreme (fringe) subset of the anti-abortion movement, and that subset deserves to be held entirely culpable for that.
If you think I’m wrong about the last point (that physical violence was a conscious tactical choice by a small subset of the anti-abortion movement) I’d be very interested in any evidence you have. For various reasons I spent some of last year reading the history of the US anti-abortion movement – from both sides and academic observers – partly because I was looking for the tipping point from mainstream protest and civil disobedience to extremism, and that was the description of everything I read.
Anita’s last blog post..A bullet came to visit a doctor in his one safe place
Jun 1 09 5:14 pm
Chuck Bird,
Late term abortions are very rare, so I’m guessing that it’s used only in the very small number of cases which don’t fit your “most” points
So, for example, when a foetus is found to be severely abnormal late in pregnancy.
Anita’s last blog post..A bullet came to visit a doctor in his one safe place
Jun 1 09 5:20 pm
Anita, Thank you for your reply. Just to clarify your position do support a woman’s right to choose a very late term abortion of a perfectly healthy baby say because her husband leaves her?
Jun 1 09 5:23 pm
Chuck Bird,
My personal threshold is viability. What is yours?
Anita’s last blog post..A bullet came to visit a doctor in his one safe place
Jun 1 09 5:35 pm
Isn’t it sad when a life is forcibly terminated?
George was a controversial figure, with accusations that some of his late term abortions were on the grounds of helping the mother avoid depression.
I’m not sure how an abortionist can ever be an iconic figure for Human Rights, but then again, a lot of people like Che Guevara.
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Jun 1 09 5:39 pm
Anita: Apologies for misrepresenting you. I have always interpreted Hello, Birmingham as comparing Martin Luther’s assassination with the killing of the local doctor in the song. Therefore I assumed you were extending the association. However, I see we have different interpretations.
Moral of the story: never get into an argument based on interpretations of poetry.
The escalation to physical violence and killing, however, was the conscious tactical choice of a small extreme (fringe) subset of the anti-abortion movement, and that subset deserves to be held entirely culpable for that.
I have exactly zero argument with that. These people seriously destroy any possible moral authority they may have had and make rational discussion even more difficult.
Chuck:
Late-term abortion is supposedly for medical reasons only. These would include severe malformations of the foetus not able to be detected earlier (this would represent the only reason I would consider half-way acceptable, although there is evidence that Tiller even abused this clause). Some conditions of pregnancy threaten the well-being of the mother, but the correct treatment for this is to end the pregnancy by delivery, not terminate the foetus. Mental health concerns are an extremely dubious reason for such an abortion. It is highly unlikely that someone with a severe enough mental condition to warrant abortion would have not been detected and treated far earlier in her pregnancy.
And anyone who argues for late term abortion for a jilted woman would presumably approve of infanticide if the man walked out soon after the birth.
Personally, I think once the foetus can survive outside of the womb, all arguments about woman’s rights become very ethically muddy
Jun 1 09 6:11 pm
MacDoctor,
Or a land war in Asia.
Or start a thread on abortion?
I’m assuming if it would have been possible to detect it earlier if different tests were done but they were not done until late then it would fit your criteria?
Anita’s last blog post..A bullet came to visit a doctor in his one safe place
Jun 1 09 6:35 pm
Anita: Yes, threads on abortion are a standing invitation to flame wars…
I’m assuming if it would have been possible to detect it earlier if different tests were done but they were not done until late then it would fit your criteria?
Yes, certainly. Foetal malformation is one of the few areas where I would leave the choice entirely in the hands of the mother, whether she would like to carry to term or not. This is purely because a severe malformation can make the child extremely difficult to care for and I believe it is important that the woman is completely accepting of the load.
For this reason, I think it is highly unethical for either side in the abortion debate to try and manipulate the facts to suit their argument. The real difficulties of care should be explained factually, along with the overall prognosis. Scare tactics are reprehensible. The support systems in place should also be outlined and a frank discussion should be had with Mother, Father and grandparents. The level of help should not be exaggerated, nor the difficulties minimised.
Having said all this, I note that only about 8% of Dr. Tiller’s abortions came under the heading of foetal malformations and a significant portion of these were abnormalities, such as Down’s syndrome, not incompatible with a long and happy life.
Jun 2 09 12:24 pm
Wow. At the end of the day, you are defending the cold blooded murder of a doctor who you don’t agree with. Just wow.
What a sorry son of a bitch you really are.
At the end of the day, you apparently cannot read. Try the second line of my post. You really are a complete moron.
Jun 2 09 1:14 pm
“by a man whose motives will have little in common with the various anti-abortion groups, no matter how this will be portrayed”
1) That statement of yours seems obviously false. The murderer’s motives are very clearly the same as those of various anti-abortion groups. It is his choice of tactics (and his sanity) that differs, not his motives.
2) In your post you seem to be both attacking Tiller AND attacking the whole idea of late term medical abortions. You then appear to have back-pedalled a bit in your comments. Could you please clarify which of the two you are against when you say this:
“There is no good medical reason for performing a late term medical abortion. None at all. ”
To help with why I care, here’s what someone who used Dr Tiller says (ref from http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=22002)
“In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.
We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.”
Jun 2 09 1:50 pm
That poor deluded couple! The reality is that if the children in that mother’s womb had a voice they would have told their mother not to give up on them, and that a life of suffering can still be a good life, and can still make a great contribution to our society. These people when they talk about what they have gone through and overcome always encourage people to overcome their own obstacles, and be grateful for what they’ve got. They can change lives for the better.
Icehawk’s testimony as to the goodness of Dr Tiller is pure cynicism masquerading as a deed of charity. Its important to understand that in these situations couples don’t make a completely selfless decision. It always weighs on their mind that to bring a suffering child into the world means that they will have to suffer as well. It’s an untold horror story of our society that many people when faced with having to suffer for others will often opt out, even to the point of getting rid of that loved one. I say have the courage to choose to love even when it hurts, and choose life.
Jun 2 09 1:56 pm
icehawk: That statement of yours seems obviously false. The murderer’s motives are very clearly the same as those of various anti-abortion groups.
Yes, you are probably right about that sentence. I was thinking of the extremity of his actions, which no lobby group would condone, rather than his basic motivation – to stop late-term abortion.
You then appear to have back-pedalled a bit in your comments.
I prefer to call it clarifying. There are no good medical reasons for a late-term abortion as an induced delivery achieves the same thing, usually more safely. In terms of foetal abnormality, however, they may be good non-clinical reasons to actually terminate the foetus prior to delivery. I have little problem with late-term abortion for this and even approve of Tiller’s methods in this regard.
Again, I note that only 8% of the late-term abortions performed by Dr. Tiller were for foetal abnormalities, yet every single anecdotal story about his clinic is about a foetal malformation, usually a catastrophic one – including yours. This is the image that Dr. Tiller wished to portray, but the reality was that most women at his clinic had late-term abortions for the flimsiest of “mental health” reasons. It is this that I heartily disagree with.
Dr. Tiller, by all accounts, was a good doctor. He was extremely competent and clearly had a good bedside manner. He may even have been the man of “compassion and courage” he was portrayed as being.
But the fact remains that he participated in multiple medical procedures of dubious legality for reasons that were little to do with the well-being of women.
Jun 2 09 2:05 pm
Johnnieboy,would your view be the same if had been possible to detect the fetal abnormality of conjoined twins twins at 4 or 6 weeks.
Jun 2 09 6:14 pm
Are the pro-abortion people aware of what happens during abortions? E.g. dismemberment of live babies and sucking the brains out of live late-term babies.
The dirty secret of the abortion industry is that a good number of babies that should be still born are born alive and killed ex utero. It’s murder either way, but killing the baby ex utero is, as far as I know, illegal everywhere in the US. Obama is in favour of ex utero infanticide.
Here’s the story of a late-term abortion where the baby was born alive:
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/a-moving-story-about-a-murdered-baby-and-one-that-was-saved/
IMHO Obama is a depraved Marxist.
http://christianclassicalliberalist.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/barack-baby-killer-obama-is-bringing-back-embryonic-stem-cell-research/
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